The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
  #46  
Old 09-22-2008, 05:07 PM
Grenvilleter Grenvilleter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 336
Default

Tomorrow, I get to inspect and try out one of these Groove Blueberries.

I can probably compare it against 2 different 1985 HD-28 Limited Edition Martins, Another buddy is a Collings fan and owns a couple. Two more friends own Timberline guitars built by Kevin Hall formerly of CF Martin Co.
I have my Beneteau as well to cross compare.

I will not be doing any sound clips for everyone to listen to because in my opinion, electronic sound clips do NOT convey the true measure or feel of any guitar.

I do wonder if there is any point however as it looks like the verdict is already in through some form of musical ESP that I have not been able to master as of yet.

I'm quite surprised that the many who went to the Montreal Guitar show did not get a chance to see any Blueberries. I would have thought they would have been represented there as Blueberry is located in or near Montreal.

A good understanding of physics is needed to acertain why a grooved top COULD be beneficial. Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying it is beneficial, only that the deciding factors from a physics point of view when it comes to structure and resonance has the potential to be somewhat dramatic.

Someone mentioned that why not just make the top thicker and avoid all the grooves. I'll just say it is a matter of strength to mass/weight ratio's. I do not think the guitar's top can be tuned like a brace can be but I do think you can get the same amount of structural strength as a regular top with less mass/thickness/wood. If anyone knows any civil engineer's, it could be rather enlightening if you talk to them as to why bridge builders use a similar technique to get strength for their framework. For those unaware, resonance is a major concern for a bridge builder as well as guitar builders but I won't go into reasons here.
Others have eluded to the sloppiness of the Bluebery guitar without ever seeing them. I guess that skill falls into the same category as the musical ESP that I mentioned beforehand.

I too would be hesitant to continue reading this forum if I thought everyone had these amazing skills that mere mortal humans are lacking in but fortunately, it appears I'm not the only one here who lack these skills.
I'll have to wait to see and play the actual guitar before I pass judgement.
  #47  
Old 09-22-2008, 05:53 PM
Bill Cory's Avatar
Bill Cory Bill Cory is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,461
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Gallagher View Post
PMC,
Don't fall prey to the old "it's all about tone" ploy to get you to buy guitars that are poorly or sloppily crafted and poorly finished.

Any builder who is worth their salt in this industry has gone to great lengths and has made huge investments in both time and finances to build their skill in every aspect of the craft.

Believe me, sloppy joints in binding, poorly fitted necks and other components are just the obvious and more visible indications of either a lack of skill or a lack of concern for and attention to detail on the builder's part. If they won't take the time to make sure that the visible joints are very clean and as close to perfectly fitted as possible, what would ever lead anyone to believe that they would take the time on the joints inside the guitar and between the components that are responsible for the creation of its tone through the free transfer of vibration. Sloppy and poorly fitted on the outside usually is an indicator of the same being present throughout.

I've never bought it as I've heard builders say, "Well I'm not worried about the purfling miters or the finish on my guitars since tone is what I specialize in and that's been the main focus for me as I've developed my skill as a builder. Fit and finish don't matter and my customers are more discerning, educated players who really know quality when they see it". That's laughable and is the biggest crock of trash that a builder can possibly offer in defense of their lack of discipline and attention to detail and their poor workmanship.

I know one builder who is really a novice at the craft and has only built a few guitars, but he touts himself as world being renowned and claims to be receiving world class accolades from well known artists. His guitars are an absolute mess in most respects and look like the beginning luthier's instruments that they are, but his aggressive and shameless, not to mention deceptive self promotion has paid off as people are beginning to believe it and are waiting for guitars that will likely prove to be huge disappointments to them when they get them.

Just because someone lists themselves among the very best in the world....no one else has to until the guitars that they're building does it for them.

A great looking guitar with very nice detail achievement in every respect will likely have great tone if the builder has any level of experience. There are plenty of great looking pieces coming out of shops of entry level builders who haven't cut their chops fully yet in the tone department.

So, I guess my point is that the appearance part is the easy part to develop to a point where world class results are being achieved....the tone part is what really takes the time. One is more mechanical since it takes advantage of great tools, lots of jigs and fixtures and good general woodworking skills while the other takes advantage of and cannot be accomplished without the intuition and insight that can only come from numbers of guitars built and exposure to more and more guitars repaired and listened to closely to develop a sharp sense of what works as well as what doesn't work when it comes to creating great tone, response and balance in a guitar.

Too many times I've seen posts from guys who are initiating commissions with young builders who have only a small number of guitars under their belts and want to validate their purchase by claiming that the guitars are as good as those coming out of the shops of builders who have multiple times the number of guitars
to their credit.....and at a fraction of the price! I've played guitars from many of the new guys that are very nicely built, but still reflect an undeveloped tone or a lack of the results that can come only with time and the type of growth that comes with it and nothing else. It makes the player feel better that they're getting a guitar built from the very same woods, with the same finish and a similar design as that of their much more expensive counterparts, but the diffrence is readily obvious in most cases and the fact remains that they are still getting what they are paying for.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars
Kevin - Thank you for laying it on the line in such a clear, objective way as this. I am one of those builders who is just finding his way, and I would never think of trying to sell off one of my guitars, so far only built from kits, as being anywhere close to the equal of those of any accomplished builder.

Folks who have built only a few guitars, like me, have a tendency to be over-impressed with their own work, simply because they are surprised that it sounds better than they expected it to sound. Also, it is a human foible to be more forgiving of our own errors and shortcomings than we are of those of others. I confess, I am guilty of this. Probably most new builders are, whether building from scratch or kits.

Thank you for putting into this thread and this forum a sense of balance. Here, more than in any other forum, it seems as if the fashion of the day carries too much weight, and when one guy is impressed by a particular guitar or a particular builder's claims, he is able to sway the others here who are so prone to GAS.
__________________
Bill

Last edited by Bill Cory; 09-23-2008 at 07:49 AM.
  #48  
Old 09-22-2008, 05:53 PM
Jeff M Jeff M is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Not where I thought I was going, but probably where I need to be.
Posts: 18,603
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grenvilleter View Post
Tomorrow, I get to inspect and try out one of these Groove Blueberries.

I can probably compare it against 2 different 1985 HD-28 Limited Edition Martins, Another buddy is a Collings fan and owns a couple. Two more friends own Timberline guitars built by Kevin Hall formerly of CF Martin Co.
I have my Beneteau as well to cross compare.

I will not be doing any sound clips for everyone to listen to because in my opinion, electronic sound clips do NOT convey the true measure or feel of any guitar.

I do wonder if there is any point however as it looks like the verdict is already in through some form of musical ESP that I have not been able to master as of yet.

I'm quite surprised that the many who went to the Montreal Guitar show did not get a chance to see any Blueberries. I would have thought they would have been represented there as Blueberry is located in or near Montreal.

A good understanding of physics is needed to acertain why a grooved top COULD be beneficial. Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying it is beneficial, only that the deciding factors from a physics point of view when it comes to structure and resonance has the potential to be somewhat dramatic.

Someone mentioned that why not just make the top thicker and avoid all the grooves. I'll just say it is a matter of strength to mass/weight ratio's. I do not think the guitar's top can be tuned like a brace can be but I do think you can get the same amount of structural strength as a regular top with less mass/thickness/wood. If anyone knows any civil engineer's, it could be rather enlightening if you talk to them as to why bridge builders use a similar technique to get strength for their framework. For those unaware, resonance is a major concern for a bridge builder as well as guitar builders but I won't go into reasons here.
Others have eluded to the sloppiness of the Bluebery guitar without ever seeing them. I guess that skill falls into the same category as the musical ESP that I mentioned beforehand.

I too would be hesitant to continue reading this forum if I thought everyone had these amazing skills that mere mortal humans are lacking in but fortunately, it appears I'm not the only one here who lack these skills.
I'll have to wait to see and play the actual guitar before I pass judgement.
Grooving the top of a guitar will make it lighter....but so will making it thinner.
Claiming that grooving it improves it's ability to generate tone is just that. A claim.
Luthery is the combination of art and science..neither of which does Blueberry seem to be employing here.
I doubt that the people building these guitars have the background or the experience of voicing tops that established builders have.
Re; the science...
Blueberry notes that they have experimented with grooving the tops to find what works best. It's amazing to me that what seems to work "best" are geometrically symetric designs using straight grooves.

Builders that experiment with how sound is generated by guitar tops have used things like Chladni patterns and resonance frequency plots....and those show that sound is not generated linearly along a guitar top. Just as important, no two tops are identical.

What "works best" for Blueberry seems to be more "what design is easiest to carve in the top that looks pretty and will impress people with no experience" rather than what actually improves the function of the top.
And again, WHY NOT GROOVE THE BACK OF THE TOP!!??

There ARE several luthiers with backgrounds in physics/engineering building today.
Kevin Ryan was an aerospace engineer before taking up building.
I believe Al Claxton had a background in engineering. As did Bill Tippin.
Kathy Wingert and Al Carruth (the two I am most aware of) extensively use Chladni patterns when building their instruments.
I believe our own SteveS has such a background.
Builders are experimenting with ways to improve the strength of the top while also increasing it's function...see folks building double top guitars like Paul Woolson, Tim McKnight, or the bracing design used by Jamie Kinscherff ....decreasing the mass of the bracing by drilling the braces.
No grooves coming out from these folks.

I remain a skeptic about Blueberry.
I may be wrong here, but they strike me as another variant of Denny Zager.

I'm also sorry to say that I remain skeptical as to your being unaffiliated with Blueberry guitars.
A bit of a coincidence, despite what you note is your history of lurking here for months, your first ever posts on this forum being on this thread.

Unfortunately, over the years people with financial or personal interests in a brand/builder have presented themselves as unbiased discussion participants.
Again, I may be wrong...but that's what's going through my mind.
__________________

"Use what talents you possess; the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best."
Henry Van Dyke


"It is in the world of slow time that truth and art are found as one"
Norman Maclean,

Last edited by Jeff M; 09-22-2008 at 07:04 PM.
  #49  
Old 09-22-2008, 06:35 PM
Eugenius Eugenius is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff M View Post
Grooving the top of a guitar will make it lighter....but so will making it thinner.
Claiming that grooving it improves it's ability to generate tone is just that. A claim.
Luthery is the combination of art and science..neither of which does Blueberry seem to be employing here.
I doubt that the people building these guitars have the background or the experience of voicing tops that established builders have.
Re; the science...
Blueberry notes that they have experimented with grooving the tops to find what works best. It's amazing to me that what seems to work "best" are geometrically symetric designs using straight grooves.

Builders that experiment with how sound is generated by guitar tops have used things like Chiandi patterns and resonance frequency plots....and those show that sound is not generated along linearly along a guitar top. Just as important, no two tops are identical.

What "works best" for Blueberry seems to be more "what design is easiest to carve in the top that looks pretty and will impress people with no experience" rather than what actually improves the function of the top.
And again, WHY NOT GROOVE THE BACK OF THE TOP!!??

There ARE several luthiers with backgrounds in physics/engineering building today.
Kevin Ryan was an aerospace engineer before taking up building.
I believe Al Claxton had a background in engineering. As did Bill Tippin.
Kathy Wingert and Al Carruth (the two I am most aware of) extensively use Chiandi patterns when building their instruments.
I believe our own SteveS has such a background.
Builders are experimenting with ways to improve the strength of the top while also increasing it's function...see folks building double top guitars like Paul Woolson, Tim McKnight, or the lattice design used by Jamie Kinscherff in his bracing.
No grooves coming out from these folks.

I remain a skeptic about Blueberry.
I may be wrong here, but they strike me as another variant of Denny Zager.

I'm also sorry to say that I remain skeptical as to your being unaffiliated with Blueberry guitars.
A bit of a coincidence, despite what you note is your history of lurking here for months, your first ever posts on this forum being on this thread.

Unfortunately, over the years people with financial or personal interests in a brand/builder have disguised presented themsevles as unbiased discussion participants.
Again, I may be wrong...but that's what's going through my mind.
wow, great post Jeff, tough to argue against.
  #50  
Old 09-23-2008, 10:50 AM
Grenvilleter Grenvilleter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 336
Default

I can understand the skepticism and some very good points are made. Why not groove the bottom if there is any impact at all ?
Very valid point and I expect the answer is marketing. All be it, perhaps not the most effective amongst us guitar weenie's.
I can see where the link between Estaban snake oil sales and this type of hype (groove top) could be interupted as similar.

I do not think Blueberry can interpret top stiffness and grove to increase a given tops strength. I think every guitar gets the same grooving in some geometric pattern that they deem to be eye pleasing.

With that said, you can greatly increase the "stiffness" of a ordinary sheet of paper by folding it numerous times. What I am saying is, you may be able to decrease mass without comprimising stiffness or strength of a sheet of spruce which would decrease the amount of mass the strings have to vibrate.

I have a cedar board that has suffered water erosion for a number of years and it has left grooves in the wood everywhere except the resin lines / growth rings. It is in effect, "grooved". The board is still part of a door and there does not appear to be any signficant loss of strength.

As far as Blueberry goes, I don't know anything more about them other that the fact I have seen a couple and got the chance to play 1 for a few days.
I didn't see sloppy workmanship. I did see a guitar that was somewhat impressive in sound quality. Will it hold together as it was short braced in accordance to the Martin style dread ? Who knows ! Time will tell.

It is for these reasons I think those who dismiss them outright before actually seeing or playing them is being somewhat short-sighted.

With that said, I don't think Blueberry is helping themselves either with their marketing efforts. I mean...come on ??? E-BAY....??? automatically that smells bad to start with.
If drawing interest to their product via some gaudy headstock or intricate carvings is what they feel they must do to draw attention to their product, so be it. Their choice. That's what Blueridge did with their award winning BR-160 and it seemed to work for them.

I guess I would be skeptical as well if looking at it from a view most people here see it in. Fortunately, after seeing other examples of their work, I'm in a better position to draw from a more informed baseline than many.

FWIW, I don't have any affiliation with Blueberry either and if I did, I think I could do a better job at marketing. Sheshhhhhh.....E-BAY....come on !!!!
  #51  
Old 09-23-2008, 11:29 AM
Acoustic Rick Acoustic Rick is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Somewhere West of the Mississippi River
Posts: 3,033
Default

As someone once said (recently repeated visa vie Politicians) You can put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig. Not to hurt anyone's feelings at all but there is nothing about the appearance of any Blueberry guitar that I've ever seen that would make me want to even give it a shot to hear what it sounded like. Lobster tail headstock? Gimme a break already. Batman bridge no thanks. They look like they were made by someone who had too much sugar in their koolaid if you know what I mean.
__________________
Rick

Steel and Wood, "Listen closely and she'll tell you her secrets" RG
  #52  
Old 09-23-2008, 11:53 AM
Eugenius Eugenius is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,915
Default

I think most of the Blueberry supporters found in this thread have to remember one very important thing before criticizing or bashing the naysayers.

These people are the end consumers and if they won't even bother picking one of these up because of the appearances and company history/marketing, than they've isolated an important market segment and they should be listening with open ears. A lot of folks on AGF seem to buy a lot of guitars over their lifespans, and know the market very well and have seen a lot of companies come and go. They are tough to fool.

I've seen people ooh and ahh at my local shop over these guitars a few times, and I"ve seen other people outright laugh when they see them. I"ve never seen somebody laugh at a Taylor or Martin and I've seen plenty off ooh's and ahh's over those brands, as well as others.

Does Blueberry have a safe or proven strategy? IMO they do not
Will it work? Time will tell
Have they shut out a vast amount of traditional guitarists by not appealing or listening to them? I think so.

The point it, instead of lashing out at the critics, maybe Blueberry should listen a little more carefully and adjust accordingly. It's good to be different, but not this different IMHO. For example, maybe a nicely carved design on the back or sides, but not the top and not the gigantic mermaid headstocks.

In the acoustic guitar world, it is my opinion that Sound is, and always will be king.
  #53  
Old 09-23-2008, 12:58 PM
Jeff M Jeff M is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Not where I thought I was going, but probably where I need to be.
Posts: 18,603
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grenvilleter View Post
I can understand the skepticism and some very good points are made. Why not groove the bottom if there is any impact at all ?
Very valid point and I expect the answer is marketing. All be it, perhaps not the most effective amongst us guitar weenie's.
I can see where the link between Estaban snake oil sales and this type of hype (groove top) could be interupted as similar.

I do not think Blueberry can interpret top stiffness and grove to increase a given tops strength. I think every guitar gets the same grooving in some geometric pattern that they deem to be eye pleasing.

With that said, you can greatly increase the "stiffness" of a ordinary sheet of paper by folding it numerous times. What I am saying is, you may be able to decrease mass without comprimising stiffness or strength of a sheet of spruce which would decrease the amount of mass the strings have to vibrate.

I have a cedar board that has suffered water erosion for a number of years and it has left grooves in the wood everywhere except the resin lines / growth rings. It is in effect, "grooved". The board is still part of a door and there does not appear to be any signficant loss of strength.

As far as Blueberry goes, I don't know anything more about them other that the fact I have seen a couple and got the chance to play 1 for a few days.
I didn't see sloppy workmanship. I did see a guitar that was somewhat impressive in sound quality. Will it hold together as it was short braced in accordance to the Martin style dread ? Who knows ! Time will tell.

It is for these reasons I think those who dismiss them outright before actually seeing or playing them is being somewhat short-sighted.

With that said, I don't think Blueberry is helping themselves either with their marketing efforts. I mean...come on ??? E-BAY....??? automatically that smells bad to start with.
If drawing interest to their product via some gaudy headstock or intricate carvings is what they feel they must do to draw attention to their product, so be it. Their choice. That's what Blueridge did with their award winning BR-160 and it seemed to work for them.

I guess I would be skeptical as well if looking at it from a view most people here see it in. Fortunately, after seeing other examples of their work, I'm in a better position to draw from a more informed baseline than many.

FWIW, I don't have any affiliation with Blueberry either and if I did, I think I could do a better job at marketing. Sheshhhhhh.....E-BAY....come on !!!!
Good points.
Re; the paper analogy....not quite the same thing.
There, you are increasing the strength of the paper along the axis of the folds....not across the surface. Also, you are not removing material from the paper..but re-arranging it.
With the grooves, you are removing material from the top. An intact piece of wood will be stronger than one that has been scoured/carved.

As I say, I may be completely wrong about this.
At this point in time however, Blueberry holds no appeal to me...either aesthetically, theory wise or marketing wise.
I'd rather spend that money on a nice Collings or upper end Martin...or find a nice used custom built guitar. (I think I saw a nice used Baranik FS in the classifieds recently. )

Just checked.
Yep. Here it is;
http://69.41.173.82/forums/showthread.php?t=136067

Also a used Hamblin, Collings, SCGC OMPW and Martin NB one could get in the same price range.
__________________

"Use what talents you possess; the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best."
Henry Van Dyke


"It is in the world of slow time that truth and art are found as one"
Norman Maclean,

Last edited by Jeff M; 09-23-2008 at 01:03 PM.
  #54  
Old 09-23-2008, 05:26 PM
Jeff M Jeff M is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Not where I thought I was going, but probably where I need to be.
Posts: 18,603
Default

OK.
This one really makes me raise my eyebrows.
http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-GROOVE-Blueb...3286.m20.l1116

Why groove the back of the guitar, the headstock and the back of the neck??
That's just plain silly.

Somebody get carried away with the chisel? A mental breakdown by the carver??

I didn't realize that they offer guitars in the price range of up to $10,000.
Sorry. If thinking about dropping that kind of money on a guitar, I'll call Mr Ryan.
__________________

"Use what talents you possess; the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best."
Henry Van Dyke


"It is in the world of slow time that truth and art are found as one"
Norman Maclean,
  #55  
Old 09-23-2008, 06:15 PM
Joe's Corsage Joe's Corsage is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 434
Default

good job jeff m. normally i don't completely agree with folks but i do with you on this subject.

i think i stated in another thread on these that they'd do well to leave us players alone and market to collectors only.

disposable income can be had by all, but i can see more disposable income being spent by collector types on these things.

even so, a collector might want a little more of a reputation behind a product, maybe some years of existence, before dropping 5k+ on an instrument.
  #56  
Old 09-23-2008, 06:27 PM
PMC PMC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 207
Default

I wonder what kind of things would get caught or stuck in the grooves?
  #57  
Old 09-23-2008, 08:00 PM
Jeff M Jeff M is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Not where I thought I was going, but probably where I need to be.
Posts: 18,603
Default

I wonder how they are finishing these guitars?
Looks like they are staining them...but then is there any lacquer/varnish/poly top coating?
__________________

"Use what talents you possess; the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best."
Henry Van Dyke


"It is in the world of slow time that truth and art are found as one"
Norman Maclean,

Last edited by Jeff M; 09-23-2008 at 08:28 PM.
  #58  
Old 09-23-2008, 10:24 PM
Rick Turner Rick Turner is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 803
Default

The assertion that these carvings are about tone is absurd. This is simply decoration masquerading as lutherie. You've got a bunch of Balinese who have bas relief carving as a craft heritage, and they're carving spruce tops. It's not about anything other than a visual marketing hook. It it were about tone, you'd see consistency and you'd not see representational "art".

All that such carving can to is to reduce the stiffness without reducing equivalent mass by the same percentage; this is simple physics. That carving will, in most cases, reduce the resonant frequencies of the top modes without helping strength in the least. Let's see what happens to these guitars over five or ten years. They better have a two year warranty...
__________________
Rick Turner
Luthier
  #59  
Old 09-24-2008, 12:04 AM
wingtip4 wingtip4 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 116
Default

Geez, some of you guys sound like the catholic church when Galileo said the earth was round. I haven't played one, so I reserve judgement. I think incorporating folk art from Bali is a great idea if it works.
  #60  
Old 09-24-2008, 02:29 AM
Jeff M Jeff M is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Not where I thought I was going, but probably where I need to be.
Posts: 18,603
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingtip4 View Post
Geez, some of you guys sound like the catholic church when Galileo said the earth was round. I haven't played one, so I reserve judgement. I think incorporating folk art from Bali is a great idea if it works.
Go for it.
__________________

"Use what talents you possess; the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best."
Henry Van Dyke


"It is in the world of slow time that truth and art are found as one"
Norman Maclean,
Closed Thread

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=