12-fret OM question

[terrapin]

Besides the short-lived Martin 000-18 and -28 Norman Blakes, the VERY limited Santa Cruz 000-18 Rising Fawn and the Bourgeois OMS-12-fret do any other companies (not small scale luthiers) build a 12-fret guitar with true OM body dimensions? Basically 12-fret necks on 14-fret OM (000) bodies? The SCGC Rising Fawn and Martin guitars are short-scale, the Bourgeois is standard scale. I have fallen big time for this design and am just interested.

Thanks

[Wade Hampton]

Terrapin, the first commercial version of this design idea actually preceded the Martin Norman Blake models by a year or two, and that was the Larrivée Pete Anderson model:

˙˙˙

These guitars had solid maple backs and sides with solid spruce tops, and had a satin sunburst finish that intentionally evoked the aesthetic of old Kay and Harmony guitars from the 50's and early 60's.

There was also a 14 fret cutaway version with a natural finish, but that one was much less of a radical departure than the ones in the pictures.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Wade Hampton]

Those Larrivée Pete Anderson models were made in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. If you're willing to consider an Asian-made interpretation of the idea, there's the Blueridge BR-142:

Blueridge BR-142

These are still in production, so far as I can tell, so you should be able to find one. List price on them is $850, so you should be able to find one in the six to seven hundred dollar range.


whm

Gibson made 12, 13, and 14 fret guitars on the same body 80 years ago, so it's not a completely new concept. Taylor makes all their 12 fret guitars 14 fret bodies.

And you can't have a 12 fret Orchestra Model...by definition.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

Gibson made 12, 13, and 14 fret guitars on the same body 80 years ago, so it's not a completely new concept. Taylor makes all their 12 fret guitars 14 fret bodies.

And you can't have a 12 fret Orchestra Model...by definition.

Well, yeah, by Martin's definition. But we can see how other guitar companies sometimes play fast and loose with those definitions.

I don't mean to quibble with you, I'm in agreement. Despite my inconstancy and lack of complete loyalty to Martin guitars I still see acoustic guitars through a Martin Guitar Company lens, and probably always will. But trying to get everybody to agree on this stuff is probably an exercise in futility.


whm

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

But trying to get everybody to agree on this stuff is probably an exercise in futility.

I don't generally expect agreement, but that doesn't make me shy away from the facts.

[terrapin]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

Gibson made 12, 13, and 14 fret guitars on the same body 80 years ago, so it's not a completely new concept. Taylor makes all their 12 fret guitars 14 fret bodies.

And you can't have a 12 fret Orchestra Model...by definition.

Dana Bourgeois calls it an OMS-12 fret. I am talking Martin OM body shape. Wasn't Gibson's body somewhat different? I do know your facts are spot on, but in reality, the term is used.

[Glennwillow]

Hi Terrapin,

Besides the guitars already mentioned, Taylor makes a very nice 12-fret guitar. I have one of their earliest "Taylor 12-Fret" guitars, essentially, an 812 with a 12-fret neck and the bridge moved towards the center of the lower bout. It has a nice sound for what I consider a small guitar -- a little more bass than the 812, which for me is good, but the short scale also makes it very easy to play.

- Glenn

[terrapin]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Hi Terrapin,

Besides the guitars already mentioned, Taylor makes a very nice 12-fret guitar. I have one of their earliest "Taylor 12-Fret" guitars, essentially, an 812 with a 12-fret neck and the bridge moved towards the center of the lower bout. It has a nice sound for what I consider a small guitar -- a little more bass than the 812, which for me is good, but the short scale also makes it very easy to play.

- Glenn

I forgot those! I think the lower bout on those is larger than an OM, but not sure. I played one once, and really liked it, and I don't usually like Taylor. That bridge movement to the center of the lower bout, and the resulting change in bracing makes a big difference! My OMS and Jack Straw sound as big as most dreadnauts.

[Nctom]

I have a US-made 12 fret Larrivee OM, apparently a limited run from 2010 or so. I also have a Martin OM21 for comparison. The Larrivee is a little "curvier", but generally similar. It is,however, all mahogany and sounds almost nothing like a Martin.
I think I'd look for something from Martin, new or used, since nothing else is going to sound like a Martin.

[terrapin]

Originally Posted by Nctom

I have a US-made 12 fret Larrivee OM, apparently a limited run from 2010 or so. I also have a Martin OM21 for comparison. The Larrivee is a little "curvier", but generally similar. It is,however, all mahogany and sounds almost nothing like a Martin.
I think I'd look for something from Martin, new or used, since nothing else is going to sound like a Martin.

I am not looking to buy. I have two. Just interested.

[tadol]

The Rising Fawn SC is a dread depth body, deeper than a standard OM, plus wider nut and saddle spacing - so if you are looking at a "standard" OM with a 12 fret neck join, you should leave it out -

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

Gibson made 12, 13, and 14 fret guitars on the same body 80 years ago, so it's not a completely new concept. Taylor makes all their 12 fret guitars 14 fret bodies.

And you can't have a 12 fret Orchestra Model...by definition.

Todd is correct.

The OM/000 14 fret body was a modification of the original 12 fret 000, with body shape collapsed down (square shoulders) and with reduced body volume to accommodate a skinny, longer neck for the tenor banjo players in bands/orchestras.

Blame Perry Bechtel !

Didn't really work of course as the OM came out in 1929 whereas Gibson had the L-5 and similar since 1922 doing the job far better.

The OM was designed as a rhythm guitar with a neck designed for chording, whereas the original 12 fret was (until the dreadnought) the largest bodied fingerstyle Martin guitar (introduced in 1902).

The Bourgeois "OMS" is a 12 fret standard scale 000.

For modern playing I'd say the 12 fret 000 and the 12 fret dreadnought are actually the superior designs.

[terrapin]

Originally Posted by tadol

The Rising Fawn SC is a dread depth body, deeper than a standard OM, plus wider nut and saddle spacing - so if you are looking at a "standard" OM with a 12 fret neck join, you should leave it out -

Talking body size here. Yes, the Rising Fawn is dread depth at the tail. Wider nut and string spacing is irrelevant to my question. The Martin Norman Blake models also have wider nuts. SCGC, Martin and Bourgeois use 2 5/16" spacing. SCGC and Martin used 1 13/16" nut. The "waters" as to whether these are 000's or OM's is muddy.

[terrapin]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Todd is correct.
The Bourgeois "OMS" is a 12 fret standard scale 000.

Todd is always accurate, theoretically, but Bourgeois does not call it a 000. He calls it an OM-12-fret. In today's world, these guitars DO get called OM's.