O-port ... oh what problems today

[Ralph124C41]

Ever have one of those days when one small thing escalates?

Today I tried putting my new Planet Waves O-Port into my Alvarez RD20S. I told you folks I put one in my (very cheap) Esteban American Legacy and it did improve the sound, especially the bass, so I kept it in and bought another one.

So as I was putting it in the RD20s I went to check the bridge. This is the same guitar I bought online used only to find the bridge was rising a bit. So I had my local guitar shop guy do a setup and fix the bridge, you know removing it, etc. Well, to my surprise and horror, the bridge is starting to come up again? It's not as bad and is only at the extreme ends of the bridge but I can put a single sheet of typing paper under part of the "horns." I called the shop and guy seemed perplexed. He said he would take a look at it and maybe put some sort of epoxy between the bridge and top. I said well, that would not help the sound any so it sounds like me he really doesn't want to be bothered with the expense of redoing the action. But I told him I just recently paid for the repair and I didn't expect this to happen. I also told him just to be safe I have my medium-gauge strings set at E flat so essentially the same, more or less, as if I have light-gauge strings on it. I think I have D'Addario EJ17s on it.

I didn't bother to put the O-Port in the RD20s so I then put it in my Alvarez AJ80 jumbo, thinking it may improve the bass a little. Wrong. As some others have reported, in this case it actually worsened the bass and the rest of the sound. So I took it out.

However as I was bringing the strings back up to the E flat I also use on this guitar I broke two strings. Two! The D and the G. These are the DR Rare PBs that I just put on and played for maybe a half hour. So I took the O-Port out.

So in a short time I have an O-Port that is useless in gone guitar, another guitar with a bridge rising again and a new set of strings with two broken strings.

All that this morning.

Any ideas how I should handle this bridge repair or deal with the shop? This shouldn't happen, especially if I have been using essentially light-gauge strings. Also I have maintained the guitar in its case and have been using a soundhole humidifer.

Sorry for my rant.

[Earl49]

Ralph, sometimes there is some gap around the corners of the bridge to avoid glue squeeze-out and the necessary clean-up. For example, you can get the paper under the corners on many production guitars. It is just easier to leave a little unglued bridge area than to clean up excess glue on a production line. Even my Taylor guitars have a little gap around the pointy corners of the bridges, as do many Martin's.

How far under the horns can you get the paper? 1/8" or so is no issue, but more than 1/4" means that there may not be enough glue contact area to hold well, as evidenced by the bridge re-lifting. DO NOT let him use epoxy as a quick fix because then the bridge will never be repairable again. In fact, just mentioning epoxy for this makes me doubt his qualifications to do guitar repair work. I don't know how to deal with the shop. But without knowing more, my guess is that the repair was not done correctly. The correct process involves scraping all the old glue off of each surface, removing any finish under the bridge area, and carefully re-gluing the bridge getting as much wetted contact area as possible.

EJ-17 medium gauge strings should be fine for almost any modern guitar. I use them on several guitars tuned E-e. Tuning down to Eb, as you said, puts the overall tension right back in the realm of light gauge. This is not really a factor in the bridge lifting again.

Breaking strings while tuning back up is pretty common. The metal of the string or string core gets work-hardened as it bends rather sharply around the post. Tuning down and then back up bends this area again, which has now become vulnerable. I work in several different tunings. While I never break strings in playing, they sometimes snap while tuning up or down. To minimize this I use extra winds (usually 5-6) so that the string wraps around the thicker part of the capstan. Bending around a larger radius minimizes the work hardening effect somewhat.

It is just a coincidence that all of this happened while messing around with the O-port - you cannot really blame it. I have zero experience with them, and consider them a gimmick at best, but it did nothing that would cause either of your problems. Just a bad day....... and vent-worthy.

[Ralph124C41]

Originally Posted by Earl49

It is just a coincidence that all of this happened while messing around with the O-port - you cannot really blame it. I have zero experience with them, and consider them a gimmick at best, but it did nothing that would cause either of your problems. Just a bad day....... and vent-worthy.

Thanks for the reply: A few answers and thoughts.

1) This opening was just today noticed. I checked it after I got it repaired and I could not enter the paper at all. And I've checked it once or twice since then when I checked my soundboard humidifier. No entry at all until now.

2) I never got the O-Port in because as soon as I saw the bridge problem I stopped everything. So the O-Port wasn't used at all on this guitar.

3) Yes I share your concern about the epoxy. I've had an issue with this shop before when I asked his tech to fix a top crack. He "fixed" it and when I checked the guitar a few months later after I just stored it in the case the crack had reopened. I took it to him and he said he assumed I wanted it done cheaply so he glued the top and didn't use cleats. I said I had assumed (oh, boy, I know) he had used cleats. I also said he should have given me the option of what I wanted done.

After some negotiations he fixed the crack properly by using cleats and I paid extra, so I guess about what he should have charged me in the first place. I don't know, I just wanted it done and it seems to be holding fine.

I will take the guitar in next week and see what my options will be. As you said I don't want the epoxy for the reason you stated plus it doesn't make a good wood-to-wood bond for sound. I don't know what options he will suggest but I'm open to "selling" it to him for work on my electrics, which he has been very good at, or putting it up for consignment but I do feel he needs to do something for me ... especially in light that I didn't even maintain the guitar at the full E tuning tension. I don't want to keep the guitar in this condition yet I don't want to have to pay more for him to repair his repair.

The worst I can do is take my business elsewhere. He has worked on several of my electrics and I have two or three more I'd like for him to work on but if this is all he will offer then it's later, gator. (I used to live in Florida.)

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by Ralph124C41

.....I've had an issue with this shop before when I asked his tech to fix a top crack. He "fixed" it and when I checked the guitar a few months later after I just stored it in the case the crack had reopened. I took it to him and he said he assumed I wanted it done cheaply so he glued the top and didn't use cleats.....

WARNING!! Danger, Will Robinson! [robot arms flailing]

I'm picky about who gets to touch my guitars, and I see two major red flags in these statements (a half-butt crack repair done without cleats and then an apparently poorly done bridge re-glue). A decent repair person should ask what the customer wants, and clearly offer the right way and a cheaper way. It sounds like this guy is good with electric guitars, but I would never let him touch one of my acoustics.

[Ralph124C41]

Originally Posted by Earl49

It sounds like this guy is good with electric guitars, but I would never let him touch one of my acoustics.

Sadly, I think I agree. I have now found a new guy to work on my acoustics. He has a shop and makes his own line of custom guitars.

I just want the other guy to make good on this repair and on the other (the fixed crack) if it reopens.

[Rockysdad]

I'd be worried about "if" he uses epoxy or not on the bridge. After the fact, how can "you" tell? I think you're better off not using this person, one strike, two strikes......

[Ralph124C41]

That's an excellent point, although I don't think he would do that. I am going to get an estimate from the luthier, although I fear it is going to be too expensive. It'a cheap guitar and I've already paid more for it in a setup and for this "repair."

I will see what he will offer to do but I think all he is going to do is suggest the epoxy quick fix, which I really don't want to accept.

[fhubert]

Take some deep breaths and go for a walk! It's Sunday and it ain't getting done today!

[Mandobart]

Epoxy has no place in luthiery, except maybe on broken tuner buttons or similar where you are joining two things that are intended to be one and are never meant to come apart. I would never consider taking an instrument to a "luthier" who suggests using epoxy to mount a bridge

[Ralph124C41]

I know, I know. The only thing I can ad in his defense is that the idea came from the shop owner, not the person who actually did the repair.

When he was suggested that remedy over the phone I was so flabbergasted that I just said well, I'd just bring it in and we can talk about it.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Ralph124C41

Sadly, I think I agree. I have now found a new guy to work on my acoustics. He has a shop and makes his own line of custom guitars.

I just want the other guy to make good on this repair and on the other (the fixed crack) if it reopens.

No, all you're likely to get if you insist on this guy "making good" on his half-asƒed repairs is more aggravation. You don't want him within ten feet of your guitars. He's repeatedly proven to you what a nimrod he really is.

Years ago in Anchorage the main repairman at our good local music store was a nice guy and a fine musician. But he wasn't a towering intellect, and any repair beyond simple setups and pickup replacements was beyond his (very basic) problem-solving skills. By the time I was using his services I'd been a professional musician for some fifteen years, and I knew a lot of the problems that arose and how my previous guitar repairmen had solved them.

When I'd tell him, he'd nod and look wise, then screw up the repairs. This happened more often than not, until I realized that he was only pretending to understand the issues I was explaining to him, and not actually registering any of it.

In fairness, part of the time I was asking him to work on my mountain dulcimers, which operate somewhat differently than guitars. But he screwed up on my guitars and mandolins as often as not, too. I finally stopped taking any of my instruments to him.

That's the situation you have on your hands, Ralph. Any guitar repair tech who just assumes you want the cheapest possible top repair and doesn't even ASK whether you want the top cleated is not terribly bright.

So walk away and don't look back. Don't give him any more opportunities to screw up further, and forget about getting a refund or your "money's worth." However much cash value you figure he and that store owe you, it isn't worth the aggravation trying to extract it from them. Given their abysmal track record, chances are that all they'll do is mess things up even more.

So walk away, friend, walk away.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Ralph124C41]

Thank you, Mr. Miller. I will probably end up just doing that (walking away, ... no ... running away.) However, as I said he does a very good job with my electrics but I'm lining up some other people to do that work also.

HOWEVER ... there is that part of me that says it is not fair to do that. I paid him good money for the repair, which he assured me would work. He should, I think, fix it the right way or give me my money back or do something else to appease me.

Admittedly a poor example: You take your car to your trusted mechanic to be fixed. His repair fails, probably because it is beyond his ability. Do you just bite the bullet and find somebody else to fix your car? I think the mechanic is responsible to mitigate the matter by issuing a refund or something.

[Wade Hampton]

Yes, he's responsible, but what are your time and aggravation worth? He's got a proven track record as a screwup. To me it seems statistically likely that if you return the guitar to his tender mercies once more, he'll screw it up again.

In any event, if you truly think you can get your money back (which I find dubious,) the person you need to talk to is the store owner, not Mister All-Thumbs. Take the repairman out of the loop entirely and talk to the person who has the authority to refund your money.

As I mentioned, to me it seems unlikely that they'll refund any money, but's your own time and energy you'll be expending, not mine, so have it. But I see the most likely outcome being not a refund and an apology from the store, but an unpleasant conversation that ends in acrimony for both sides.

Good luck with it.


whm

[Ralph124C41]

Well, I'm retired and the shop is close by so no loss there. However, there is the aggravation factor. Actually the person who recommended the epoxy treatment is the owner, not the tech person.

Either he will do something to make it right or I will politely as I can tell him I have to take my business elsewhere. He knows I have two more electrics I want to work on.

[MikeBmusic]

The fact that both ends of the bridge have the gap makes me think your top is bulging out a little more than healthy since the previous repair - too much humidification.