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  #196  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:06 PM
Ed422 Ed422 is offline
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Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post
So you're implying that an average user would not know if a guitar was hard or easy to play...or am I reading into your post something that isn't there...?
It might get down to semantics and how "average user" is defined. I'd go with the idea that many players have no clue about setups. They might be able to tell you this one plays better than that one when they are next to each other but those players have no idea why. And, I'm not talking new players.

Or maybe I'm just trying to talk myself into believing I'm not just an average player. (grin)

Ed
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  #197  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed422 View Post
It might get down to semantics and how "average user" is defined. I'd go with the idea that many players have no clue about setups. They might be able to tell you this one plays better than that one when they are next to each other but those players have no idea why. And, I'm not talking new players.

I don't disagree with this, Ed.

The following question is; Is this okay, or should someone's (manufacturer, retailer, etc.) standards be higher than just catering to what I would call the "lowest common denominator"?

Should the retailer be better at educating the customer about what a good and proper set-up is? Can the manufacturer deliver a better more consistent product in this regard?

Are there retailers out there that love guitars, feel a responsibility to the customer/player, and can still figure out a way to be profitable?

...or should we just shrug our shoulders, and pretty much ignore (or mock) the actual needs of the player?


...and as I asked earlier;
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Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post
...if they're (the customer/player) not aware that this might require attention, does their oblivion remove the possibility that the set-up is bad?
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  #198  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post
Perhaps so...but if they're not aware that this might require attention, does their oblivion remove the possibility that the set-up is bad?

Are you advocating that most (51%, 75%, 95%?) factory set-ups are indeed "spot on"?

Define "spot-on" in regards to what an individual player might require for set-up.
I agree that set-up on any given guitar is a personal thing that no factory set-up can guarantee, nor should it. The manufacturer will ship the instrument set-up to specs that most unsuspecting players will feel good about -- until they may one day happen to play one set-up to their individual preference.
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  #199  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Acousticado View Post
The manufacturer will ship the instrument set-up to specs that most unsuspecting players will feel good about <<snip>>

Please do not assume this to be true.

It would be nice if it were true, of course...but that's not the world I see around me...
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  #200  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:45 PM
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OK, I will throw out what I think a good guitar manufacturers would call a very good standard setup 6/64 on low E, 4/64 on high E at the 12th and a relief of about .007. I think most people would be happy with that. Many guitars come in higher than that to make sure there are no busses. Also easier to come in high and bring down than the other way around.
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  #201  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:53 PM
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I'm impressed. The hair has been split so fine on this thread that it is virtually undetectable at this point.

Nitpickers unite!

P.S. What's a setup?
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  #202  
Old 08-02-2010, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Doubleneck View Post
OK, I will throw out what I think a good guitar manufacturers would call a very good standard setup 6/64 on low E, 4/64 on high E at the 12th and a relief of about .007. I think most people would be happy with that. Many guitars come in higher than that to make sure there are no busses. Also easier to come in high and bring down than the other way around.
Steve

I'll go with that.

It doesn't happen often that one actually finds a guitar from the factory with that set-up.

On a Cargo?

No way!
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  #203  
Old 08-02-2010, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doubleneck
OK, I will throw out what I think a good guitar manufacturers would call a very good standard setup 6/64 on low E, 4/64 on high E at the 12th and a relief of about .007. I think most people would be happy with that. Many guitars come in higher than that to make sure there are no busses. Also easier to come in high and bring down than the other way around.
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Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post
I'll go with that.

It doesn't happen often that one actually finds a guitar from the factory with that set-up.

On a Cargo?

No way!
I'm just a noob, but to me the action at the nut is more important than the action at the 12th fret. Especially on the short-scale Cargo.

Lowering the nut slots made a *huge* difference in playability to me. I lowered the 12th fret action as well, but since the tension on the Cargo is so low, that didn't matter as much.

In general, a properly cut nut is more important than a "proper" saddle height to a noob like me who rarely goes past the 5th fret.
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  #204  
Old 08-02-2010, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by gitnoob View Post
I'm just a noob, but to me the action at the nut is more important than the action at the 12th fret. Especially on the short-scale Cargo.

Lowering the nut slots made a *huge* difference in playability to me. I lowered the 12th fret action as well, but since the tension on the Cargo is so low, that didn't matter as much.

In general, a properly cut nut is more important than a "proper" saddle height to a noob like me who rarely goes past the 5th fret.
I would encourage folks to understand that this approach to set-up is incomplete, and even the beginner player should begin to get educated about string height at the 12th fret, because this, along with relief, will affect playing even in first-position.

Yes, nut-slot height is also important, and when it's wrong it can be really wrong...but understanding and enjoying a proper set-up goes *way* beyond the nut.
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  #205  
Old 08-02-2010, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post
I would encourage folks to understand that this approach to set-up is incomplete, and even the beginner player should begin to get educated about string height at the 12th fret, because this, along with relief, will affect playing even in first-position.

Yes, nut-slot height is also important, and when it's wrong it can be really wrong...but understanding and enjoying a proper set-up goes *way* beyond the nut.
I only understand what my fingers tell me. Well, I understand a little physics, too.

The amount of force required to displace a string is highest at the nut, and it's lowest at the 12th fret. Your fingers are very sensitive pressure gauges. It makes sense to me to focus on the area that makes the most difference in feel, but I am a noob.
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  #206  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by gitnoob View Post
I only understand what my fingers tell me. Well, I understand a little physics, too.

The amount of force required to displace a string is highest at the nut, and it's lowest at the 12th fret. Your fingers are very sensitive pressure gauges. It makes sense to me to focus on the area that makes the most difference in feel, but I am a noob.

I think it was Richard Bach who stated:

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours."

Might have been Hugh Prather...but I think I was right the first time.

A proper set-up involves checking neck-angle, checking frets for levelness, dialing in the proper relief, saddle height, checking intonation, and nut slot height for each string.

Thinking that one might correct or compensate for the other is incorrect, and anything less than a complete job is, well, incomplete....and in it's incompleteness, will provide a less than optimal experience for the player.

Good enough is never good enough.
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  #207  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:27 PM
Ed422 Ed422 is offline
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Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post
I don't disagree with this, Ed.

The following question is; Is this okay, or should someone's (manufacturer, retailer, etc.) standards be higher than just catering to what I would call the "lowest common denominator"?

Should the retailer be better at educating the customer about what a good and proper set-up is? Can the manufacturer deliver a better more consistent product in this regard?

Are there retailers out there that love guitars, feel a responsibility to the customer/player, and can still figure out a way to be profitable?

...or should we just shrug our shoulders, and pretty much ignore (or mock) the actual needs of the player?
Kind of in the order asked...

No, but lowest common denominator is about the best one could expect... until we start going into higher end entries. There I expect QC issues (including setup out of the box) to be better. Some of the higher end factory guitars (Martin, Taylor, Collings, etc.) are priced right there with small shop builders and I'd expect them to compare in workmanship and materials.

The retailer as knowledge source, yes. Except "we" as a customer base have collectively accepted the "best price" model. The manufacturer with higher QC, yes. Except "we" as a customer base... ...model and have proven that

Retailers who are passionate and still in business, yes. They are there but woefully far and few between.

I don't know the real numbers so these are just speculation, I'd bet the cheap low end guitars (sub $1000) equal (in dollars) the mid to high end guitars (i.e. over $1000) sold. The customer/player has spoken and the "system" has answered. Sadly.

ps: not arguing or saying it is right, just stating how I see it.

Ed
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  #208  
Old 08-02-2010, 09:32 PM
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Larry Pattis Larry Pattis is offline
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Originally Posted by Ed422 View Post
Kind of in the order asked...

No, but lowest common denominator is about the best one could expect... until we start going into higher end entries. There I expect QC issues (including setup out of the box) to be better. Some of the higher end factory guitars (Martin, Taylor, Collings, etc.) are priced right there with small shop builders and I'd expect them to compare in workmanship and materials.

The retailer as knowledge source, yes. Except "we" as a customer base have collectively accepted the "best price" model. The manufacturer with higher QC, yes. Except "we" as a customer base... ...model and have proven that

Retailers who are passionate and still in business, yes. They are there but woefully far and few between.

I don't know the real numbers so these are just speculation, I'd bet the cheap low end guitars (sub $1000) equal (in dollars) the mid to high end guitars (i.e. over $1000) sold. The customer/player has spoken and the "system" has answered. Sadly.

ps: not arguing or saying it is right, just stating how I see it.

Ed
Sure.

My basic premise in all of this is to simply get things right.

A partial-fix is not a fix, and don't ask me to believe that it is, or to agree with anyone that good-enough is indeed good enough.

My opinion is that any guitar with a full retail of five-hundred dollars or more ought to come in better-than-good condition structurally, and to be able to take a fairly wide range of set-up preferences.

Mocking the need for full and proper set-ups? Denigrating a retailer that cares, that goes out of his way to get cool guitars in peoples hands? Please, don't bring that stuff to a guitar-forum.

On-topic: For the sake of the guitar-community, and in always hoping for cool, well-made guitars, I hope that Peavey does indeed get it right.

That's how I see it.
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Last edited by Larry Pattis; 08-02-2010 at 09:39 PM.
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  #209  
Old 08-03-2010, 01:21 PM
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Larry, obviously your are passionate, about the subject which is great. I have to state that I hope you dont think I was mocking your concerns because I wasnt. However is there such a thing as a proper set up. If people have different styles of playng, as well as differences in how they play there guitar. I bought my CA Bluegrass Performer at Elderly Instruments. I picked it up the day they got it in and watched as they checked it over. According to the staff there they felt the guitar's action, etc was about perfect. At the time The Bluegrass Performer also came with an extra sadle- a little higher. I had other individuzals check it out at various clinic etc and they were impressed with it. I have done the same with my OX and it has been the same. Of course there may be other players who may want it a little different. I have seen one gentleman online who likes to play slack key on his OX. I guess in the end it may come down to having your guitar set up by a professional to each persons standards. Can the CA's be improved Im sure they can. Of course an improvement to some may also not be an improvement to others. A trussrod may be great in some cases but to some players like myself we are happy without them. I have not had any noticeable changes in the necks of either of my guitars. But in any case I wish you luck in finding the guitar that is perfect for you. In my case as of now, my CA OX is the perfect guitar for me. I look forward to trying the Cargo in the future.
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  #210  
Old 08-04-2010, 12:40 AM
Dsinned Dsinned is offline
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Default Thank goodness

After reading all this discussion on set up, I began to become paranoid that just because my CA felt right, it might not be right. I just measured the height of my strings at the 12th fret of my CA GX. They were right on with the afore mentioned dimensions of 4/64 & 6/64. Had they been off I suppose I could have donated my CAs to Garth Brooks for his grand finale where they bring a just end to a couple of well setup Takamines (I suspect I misspelled that). Judging from my incident where one of my CAs tangled with a low hanging ceiling fan and the mark that was left on the headstock turned out to be dust from the fan, I suspect that Garth and his associate would be vibrating all the way to the bank.
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Last edited by Dsinned; 08-04-2010 at 01:09 AM. Reason: clarify
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