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  #166  
Old 08-01-2010, 08:02 PM
wilstev wilstev is offline
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Gitnoob, no need to start trouble, I don't think Ted was bashing anyone. I've been to LA Guitar Sales many times and not once did I hear Ted say anything negative about Mike.

I like the road trip idea but I can see how the negative reviews that always seem to follow can be bad for business. Even if there are fifty positive reviews most will only remember the one negative. A smart business man would avoid it.

As for the McNicol setup on a CA, the emperor has no clothes.
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  #167  
Old 08-01-2010, 08:31 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Gitnoob, no need to start trouble, I don't think Ted was bashing anyone. I've been to LA Guitar Sales many times and not once did I hear Ted say anything negative about Mike.

I like the road trip idea but I can see how the negative reviews that always seem to follow can be bad for business. Even if there are fifty positive reviews most will only remember the one negative. A smart business man would avoid it.

As for the McNicol setup on a CA, the emperor has no clothes.
As Peter Graves asked in the movie Airplane: "Have you ever seen the Emperor naked, Joey?"

As somebody else mentioned in this thread, it is not at all unusual for new guitars to need a setup. When I bought my Collings 0003 12 fret back in 1996, I had it setup the way I wanted it. I don't know that this is typically done with classical guitars, but seems to be common for steel string instruments.

Tony
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  #168  
Old 08-01-2010, 09:53 PM
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As Peter Graves asked in the movie Airplane: "Have you ever seen the Emperor naked, Joey?"
I just spit up my beer
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  #169  
Old 08-01-2010, 10:00 PM
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As for the McNicol setup on a CA, the emperor has no clothes.

What does this mean or imply?
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  #170  
Old 08-01-2010, 11:51 PM
Steve Christens Steve Christens is offline
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BTW, I always felt MacNichols the road trips hurt CA more than helped, and more than one person at CA agreed with me. Same goes for the dealer setups Mike was offering. In truth there is not a whole lot you can do to a CA......

Huh? The only way the road trips hurt is if a manufacturer can't take criticism.

For those of us who don't live in LA or NY or maybe TN, MacNichol's road trips are the only way to sample many of these hard-to-find guitars. I took part in a road trip of the original Blackbird Super OM and was one of several who offered constructive criticism on the neck that Blackbird took to heart and used to change the design of the guitar. The redesigned OM is on the road now (coming to my house in September) and by all accounts they have a real winner on their hands. The response to Emerald guitars road trips has also been fantastic. I've had the opportunity to play one of their X5s and X10s, and eagerly await the short scale X7.

The quality of CA guitars was famously inconsistent, and inasmuch as more people got to see this, the road trips might well have hurt CA. But that's CA's fault for letting them out the door that way, not MacNichol's for letting people play them.

As for the setup comment - that's just silly. Every production guitar needs a setup to play at its best, and CAs were no different. True you couldn't adjust the relief, but you could take the action down from the typical 6.5/64" low E to whatever you wanted - and drop the action at the nut as well. The Podium in Minneapolis (hardly an inexperienced operation) makes a point of offering lifetime setups on all the guitars they sell (including CAs) - were they wrong too?
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  #171  
Old 08-02-2010, 06:34 AM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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I have to agree with above, I have just started this year to take advantage of the MacNickel Road trips. Have seen an Emerald X10 and a Rainsong Jm1000. I am signed up for the Blackbird OM next month. This is the only way I would ever be able to try these carbons and I very much appreciate that opportunity for the $ outlaid. Given lack of availability in our area and the ability to have a guitar for a week instead of sitting in a store, it is awesome. I really think that most reviews have been very positive and are a plus for the carbon industry, which faces a tuff time getting guitars in peoples hands to try. The tuffness of carbon really allows these kinds of travels. I think the store builds loyalty from this and they should, I consider it almost a priviledge to get my hands on these guitars. As for set-up, MacNickel is right on, and are doing what they should be doing. I had bought a CA previously from another dealer, and it came in set up very well from the factory. I did take it to my tech locally and he lowered two strings at the nut just slightly and I sanded the bridge down myself just a tad. These setups may have been more necessary at times with CA, but fine tuning is a good thing for any new guitar for the factory.
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  #172  
Old 08-02-2010, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Tarpman View Post
The road trip guitar you got was probably one of the early versions where the whole back had to be unscrewed to work on it. Sadly the Internet chatter on those early guitars and Larry Amy's decision to sell them direct to the public at wholesale at first kept many dealers away from the later models which were fantatic guitars. I had no trouble selling them, the trick was to match the guitar to the client. Problem is not every dealer knows how to sell carbon guitars. I think Peavey needs to have a good long talk with the dealers that sold the most guitars than teach the rest of the dealers how to market them.

BTW, I always felt MacNichols the road trips hurt CA more than helped, and more than one person at CA agreed with me. Same goes for the dealer setups Mike was offering. In truth there is not a whole lot you can do to a CA and insinuating it needs a setup is never good for sales. In Mike's defense he has only been in the guitar business for two years. (Heck I have coffee stains on my desk that are older than that ) and you can't blame a guy for trying. This is where CA should have stepped in and made some suggestions.



It will be a tough road for the new CA. First they will have to overcome what has happened to their dealers in March. As their number one dealer I had over sixty guitars in inventory when I got the call that they were closing. All of a sudden I was looking at $100,000 in inventory that was no longer being supported by the manufacturer. Some of us took huge losses and will need to know exactly what Peavey has in mind before we write any more checks.

Then there's the economy. Many of us have had to cut back so lower priced guitars are selling better than higher priced models. This is where the CA RAW, and Rainsong Studio models come in. But some of you would be surprised to hear that when CA came out with the RAW models most of their dealers refused to stock them because of the lower margins. Same thing is happening with the Rainsong Studio line. There are truly amazing guitars but take a visit to any Rainsong dealers websites and see if they mention it. So the new CA will have it's work cut out for them.

Stay tuned
Ted,

My guitar repairman who just recently repaired 6 of Hank Williams guitars for him while he was visiting Kid Rock in Detroit disagrees with you...he has a performed setups on CA guitars and the owners have felt a substantial difference in the play of the guitar...granted you are working with saddle and nut adjustments onlywith no truss rod in the CA. As for the road trips....outstanding idea that I have participated in at least 10 of them. Whereas maybe it hurt CA a bit Rainsong and Emerald and Blackbird think they are great ideas and are very supportive of Macnichols in the roadtrip concept. Blackbird made adjustments based on roadtrip reviews of their guitars.....CA maybe needed to pay closer attention toi the reviews but to be very direct the road trip did nothing for their demise.
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  #173  
Old 08-02-2010, 09:48 AM
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I think every CF dealer needs to give some credits to MacNichol's for enlarging the CF market. Everyone knows that CF guitar is a new concept. For this reason, giving trials through roadtrips is actually a very smart move. Then, MacNichol's created the Carbon Fiber Guitar Forum where people get a better understanding about CF guitars.

These are some really good actions aimed not only at getting more piece of the pie, but more at enlarging the pie. I can't say other dealers have made a similar contribution.
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  #174  
Old 08-02-2010, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by revive View Post
I think every CF dealer needs to give some credits to MacNichol's for enlarging the CF market. Everyone knows that CF guitar is a new concept. For this reason, giving trials through roadtrips is actually a very smart move. Then, MacNichol's created the Carbon Fiber Guitar Forum where people get a better understanding about CF guitars.

These are some really good actions aimed not only at getting more piece of the pie, but more at enlarging the pie. I can't say other dealers have made a similar contribution.
I agree completely. 'Tho I haven't taken advantage of the roadtrips, I bought my GXi from Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarpman
In Mike's defense he has only been in the guitar business for two years. (Heck I have coffee stains on my desk that are older than that ) and you can't blame a guy for trying. This is where CA should have stepped in and made some suggestions.
Like others, I can't agree. Ted, with all respect, Mike may only have been in the biz two years, but he brings an innovative approach that many long-timers should learn from.
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  #175  
Old 08-02-2010, 11:42 AM
Jaygits Jaygits is offline
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<<< The scathing post from an ex-CA employee (which many of us have read) by someone over on the Carbon Forum had a lot to say about things, and I wonder if this was "Jaygits" who has been posting here? It was a pretty defamatory post, and it was deleted by the owner of the forum pretty quickly. It didn't seem like the same person, but perhaps some light can be shed on this here...? >>>

I know nothing of this post you mention on the CF Forum. I have never posted on Mike's forum, but I trust his judgment. I believe in Mike and his business - that's why I opened him as a CA dealer.

Furthermore, as a person who dedicated his heart and soul into the efforts on behalf of CA, I would never post anything scathing or defamatory against that company. I'm surprised that you would suggest that Larry, but then again you don't know me other than a few posts here.

Thanks,

Jay
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  #176  
Old 08-02-2010, 12:08 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Well, I always do jump in on discussions about carbon fiber guitars, and especially CA guitars. However, in this case, I have read references to this particular post, but never saw it (and don't really care to). All I can say is that I think it has more impact than it might have if it were left for all to see. I think MacNichol is doing a wonderful thing with the forum, the road trips, and in general supporting the whole carbon fiber thing in unique and innovative ways, so I am sure Michael had his reasons for removing it.

When I was a kid in Junior High, my older brother bought a Rolling Stones album that had just come out, called "Between The Buttons". It had a song on it called "Let's Spend the Night Together". It really was kind of a dumb tune that we would all have ignored, since it wasn't why people were buying the album anyway. But my Dad made a big deal out of the tune in the "name of decency". He whipped out his pocket knife, held up the album, and scratched up just that one track so we couldn't play it. Now, we HAD to hear that tune, so we went over to friends' houses to listen to it, which in turn generated their interest in it - the opposite effect that my Dad intended.

On the CF forum, people have posted and asked if anybody can PM them the removed post. It reminds me of my brother's Stones album.

Tony
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  #177  
Old 08-02-2010, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaygits View Post
<<< The scathing post from an ex-CA employee (which many of us have read) by someone over on the Carbon Forum had a lot to say about things, and I wonder if this was "Jaygits" who has been posting here? It was a pretty defamatory post, and it was deleted by the owner of the forum pretty quickly. It didn't seem like the same person, but perhaps some light can be shed on this here...? >>>

I know nothing of this post you mention on the CF Forum. I have never posted on Mike's forum, but I trust his judgment. I believe in Mike and his business - that's why I opened him as a CA dealer.

Furthermore, as a person who dedicated his heart and soul into the efforts on behalf of CA, I would never post anything scathing or defamatory against that company. I'm surprised that you would suggest that Larry, but then again you don't know me other than a few posts here.

Thanks,

Jay


Wasn't suggesting, just wondering who made that Carbon-Forum post...and now you've cleared that up. It wasn't you.

Thank you.

EDIT: I just now received an email from Mike Stone (owner of the CF forum) stating that it was not you, Jay, and Mike's exact words about you were, "I know Jay and he is a great guy and very professional."

Okay, glad that this is cleared up.


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Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
Well, I always do jump in on discussions about carbon fiber guitars, and especially CA guitars. However, in this case, I have read references to this particular post, but never saw it (and don't really care to). All I can say is that I think it has more impact than it might have if it were left for all to see. I think MacNichol is doing a wonderful thing with the forum, the road trips, and in general supporting the whole carbon fiber thing in unique and innovative ways, so I am sure Michael had his reasons for removing it.

When I was a kid in Junior High, my older brother bought a Rolling Stones album that had just come out, called "Between The Buttons". It had a song on it called "Let's Spend the Night Together". It really was kind of a dumb tune that we would all have ignored, since it wasn't why people were buying the album anyway. But my Dad made a big deal out of the tune in the "name of decency". He whipped out his pocket knife, held up the album, and scratched up just that one track so we couldn't play it. Now, we HAD to hear that tune, so we went over to friends' houses to listen to it, which in turn generated their interest in it - the opposite effect that my Dad intended.

On the CF forum, people have posted and asked if anybody can PM them the removed post. It reminds me of my brother's Stones album.

Tony



I agree..if it had been left up it would have been dismissed (I think) as mostly a disgruntled employee...although some interesting conclusions can in fact be drawn from the post.
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  #178  
Old 08-02-2010, 01:02 PM
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Wasn't suggesting, just wondering who made that Carbon-Forum post...and now you've cleared that up. It wasn't you.

Thank you.

EDIT: I just now received an email from Mike Stone (owner of the CF forum) stating that it was not you, Jay, and Mike's exact words about you were, "I know Jay and he is a great guy and very professional."

Okay, glad that this is cleared up.


I agree..if it had been left up it would have been dismissed (I think) as mostly a disgruntled employee...although some interesting conclusions can in fact be drawn from the post.
maybe this is why you shouldn't post user names unless you know these things as fact ............
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  #179  
Old 08-02-2010, 01:13 PM
Jaygits Jaygits is offline
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thanks Larry and Mike. All good.

I am guessing, and I emphasize guessing, that this was a lower level employee making commentary. Nobody on the management team would do such a thing, I promise you. We all had the best intentions at heart.

And, I can see how things could easily be misconstrued at CA if you were the guy outside with his ear to the key hole.

Best,

Jay
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  #180  
Old 08-02-2010, 01:14 PM
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Larry Pattis Larry Pattis is offline
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maybe this is why you shouldn't post user names unless you know these things as fact ............
Well, I was asking in order to *get* the facts...and there was indeed some reference to Jay over on the CF forum.

...and I wasn't making an accusation, I was asking if the posts were possibly made by the same person...I had to use "names" to identify who I was referring to.

Further, I said, "It didn't seem like the same person, but perhaps some light can be shed on this here...?"

Not an accusation.

The reference was wrong.

Now it's cleared up.

Completely.

...and with no-harm done, IMO.


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Originally Posted by Jaygits View Post
thanks Larry and Mike. All good.

I am guessing, and I emphasize guessing, that this was a lower level employee making commentary. Nobody on the management team would do such a thing, I promise you. We all had the best intentions at heart.

And, I can see how things could easily be misconstrued at CA if you were the guy outside with his ear to the key hole.

Best,

Jay

Thanks for this, Jay.

I was just told that it was "a CA set up tech" that made the post over there.

That's all I know.
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Last edited by Larry Pattis; 08-02-2010 at 01:22 PM.
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