#61
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You are not reading the chart fully. Yes, sapele is wider but mahogany has that arch in the middle which makes it more complex while sapele is flat. They are different woods. Pick the one that has the sound that you want and chose it. If you want the sound that you grew up hearing from guys who played mahogany guitars - one of the traditional acoustic guitar woods going all the way back - then you really do need to choose mahogany to get that sound. If this is not important to you and you prefer the different sound you get from sapele, then go with sapele. It is a fine tonewood in its own right and fortunately for those who prefer it or who can not hear the nuanced differences the good thing is that it is very plentiful and inexpensive compared to mahogany.
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Member #12 Acoustics: 1995 Taylor 510 1997 Taylor Custom Shop 14 size 1998 Taylor K-65 12 string 1998 Larrivee C-10E with Mucha Lady IR/Sitka Electrics: 1999 PRS Custom 22 Artist Package - Whale Blue/Ebony 1995 Fender Custom Shop 1960 Strat - Dakota/Maple 1997 Fender California Series Fat Strat - CAR/Maple 1968 Teisco e-110 Sunburst/Maple |
#62
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It would seem to me that a good builder would want a flat wood so as to temper the instrument with his design and building rather than have a variable that is not controllable.
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#63
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My Froggy H12 is "60 year old quilted sapele".
Far from being a downgrade, it's a $4500 upcharge from their standard mahogany and $2500 over their figured mahogany. Not saying that's reasonable, but obviously their is no linear opinion re. sapele being a downgrade from mahogany. |
#64
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I curretnly own two hogs, one a D-15M all Hog and two a D-17M Hog back and sides with Sitka Spruce top. They play and sound great. Now I have played a Martin that was all solid sapele and sounded truly amazing. I truly feel it comes down to the sound you love and are striving for. Enough has been said on this forum about differance between the two woods, but I feel you need to be the judge and decide which wood is best for you. Try them both out see if you like one over the other. To me that is what is most important. Now on the Taylor side take a look at a DN3 or their new 320 line or in Martin the DRS1 or D-1GT.
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Taylor 214e SB DLX Taylor 214e DLX Limited Edition Taylor 217E SB Plus 50th Anniversary Edition LTD |
#65
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The average price for straight-grained sets of backs and sides: Mahogany = $50 Rosewood = $100 The average price for 4/4 lumber: Mahogany = $8 to $10 Rosewood = $15 to $25 |
#66
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That said, how does one figure-out what species is used on their "mahogany' guitar? I just picked-up an Ibanez AC240 Artwood with "solid mahogany top and mahogany laminate back and sides..." So what species is this? Clearly, the back and sides are Sapele but the top looks nothing like Sapele and more like lightly quilted...mahogany...but what kind?? Online photos of the AC240 show tops that look like Sapele though mine looks nothing like that. Is it possible the top is a different "mahogany" than the back/sides on this guitar?
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Martin CEO-7, Martin 000-15sm, Gibson J-35, Ibanez AC240, Yamaha FD01S, Journey RT660 |
#67
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So, what this means is you need to look at the technical specs that the manufacturer puts on their websites and on their advertising and hope they are not trying to trick buyers. Whenever you see a phrase like African mahogany or Asian Mahogany you can be 99.9 percent sure that it is not real mahogany and it is something like sapele or khaya or something else. The reason is mahogany is not native to anywere but the western hemisphere. Of course there are some people trying to plant real mahogany in other parts of the world, but at this point those plantations do not have trees of commericial size. Mahogany takes about 80 years to get to a decent size and most of the real mahogany that you see being used by the high end makers comes from trees that are 100 to 150 years old. It is like Rocky Mountain Oysters. If you go into a bar and someone offers you those my recommendation is to decline. Anytime you see a modifier on the name of something other than what you expect, it is not likely to be what you expect.
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Member #12 Acoustics: 1995 Taylor 510 1997 Taylor Custom Shop 14 size 1998 Taylor K-65 12 string 1998 Larrivee C-10E with Mucha Lady IR/Sitka Electrics: 1999 PRS Custom 22 Artist Package - Whale Blue/Ebony 1995 Fender Custom Shop 1960 Strat - Dakota/Maple 1997 Fender California Series Fat Strat - CAR/Maple 1968 Teisco e-110 Sunburst/Maple |
#68
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AC240 Finishes OPN Open Pore Natural Specification body shape Grand Concert body top Solid Mahogany top back & sides Mahogany back & sides neck Mahogany neck tuning machine Chrome GroverŽ tuners nut & saddles Bone nut and saddle bridge pins Ibanez Advantage™ bridge pins rosette Abalone rosette bridge & fretboard Rosewood bridge and fretboard string D'AddarioŽ EXP™ strings Neck Dimensions Scale 634mm a : Width at Nut 45mm b : Width at 14th Fret 57mm c: Thickness at 1st 22mm d : Thickness at 7th 24mm Radius 400mmR Body Dimensions a : Length 19 1/2" b : Width 15 1/4" c : Max Depth 4 1/4" Well, according to Ibanez, it's obviously "mahogany!" The photos of sapele look so similar to those of Khaya. When I look at photos of the Ibanez, I lean toward Sapele. When I look at mine, I lean heavily toward Khaya. Regardless, mine's very beautiful! Thanks -- your posts were immensely helpful and nearly scholarly! Cheers
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Martin CEO-7, Martin 000-15sm, Gibson J-35, Ibanez AC240, Yamaha FD01S, Journey RT660 |
#69
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I think that sapele is an absolutely superb tonewood, as is khaya. I've heard magnificent musical instruments made from both.
Sapele is not a terribly expensive tropical hardwood on the world hardwood market right now, so many players confuse that lower board foot cost with lower quality. But that's just human nature in action. I have difficulty believing that anyone who played a succession of sapele guitars, then a succession of khaya guitars, then a succession of Honduran mahogany guitars, all in a pitch-black room where the darkness prevented them from seeing the wood grain and color, would possibly come out emphatically against any of the three as tonewoods. Quite honestly, I think the sapele that's being used on guitars today is typically of better quality than most of the Honduran mahogany on all but the most expensive instruments. I don't see any glaring deficiencies in sapele when compared directly to khaya, either. I think sapele is wonderful, frankly, and find Internet sapele-bashing to be a sign of inexperience on the part of whoever's doing the bashing. Because if you actually played a bunch of sapele guitars and listened to them without prejudice, you'd find that it's a fine wood for building acoustic guitars. Wade Hampton Miller |
#70
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I can't say I've seen the Sapele bashing that you seemingly have but knowing human nature, I'm sure it's out there. People seem to devalue that which is ubiquitous or common.
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Martin CEO-7, Martin 000-15sm, Gibson J-35, Ibanez AC240, Yamaha FD01S, Journey RT660 |
#71
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In Volume 76 Summer 2013 of Wood & Steel, Andy Powers noted the following:
The lower cost [of mahogany] wasn't due to it being an inferior wood," explains Taylor luthier Andy Powers. "It was just that you could get more boards out of a mahogany tree than a rosewood tree because the trees grew bigger. It was also more stable than rosewood when you dried it." The article goes on to say, "The African sapele used for backs and sides [of the Taylor 320, 322 and 324] shares many of mahogany's tonal properties, with slightly less midrange punch and an extra splash of treble brightness."
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Emerald X20 Emerald X20-12 Fender Robert Cray Stratocaster Martin D18 Ambertone Martin 000-15sm |
#72
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Honestly Wade I hardly every see anyone bashing Sapele as a tonewood. What I do see, and agree with, is folks voicing frustration over Guitar Manufacturers being less than honest about what wood they are using.
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Larrivee OM-03RE; O-01 Martin D-35; Guild F-212; Tacoma Roadking Breedlove American Series C20/SR Rainsong SFTA-FLE; WS3000; CH-PA Taylor GA3-12, Guild F-212 https://markhorning.bandcamp.com/music |
#73
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Exactly. I have said in all of my posts that sapele and khaya are fine alternative tonewoods. My posts are aimed at the handful of makers who are not honest about what woods they are using on their guitars in what I think is a mistaken belief that they can get a better price by deceiving buyers by using made-up names for woods they use (African mahogany, Asian mahogany, etc.). This is also a part of what I see as deception by some of the same makers when they avoid using the term 'laminated' when they say what wood their guitars are made with. Instead they say something like 'rosewood back and sides' and then defend themselves when they are called on it by saying they never said it was 'solid' rosewood back and sides and when they make guitars with 'solid' rosewood or mahogany or whatever back and sides they market it as 'solid rosewood' back and sides.
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Member #12 Acoustics: 1995 Taylor 510 1997 Taylor Custom Shop 14 size 1998 Taylor K-65 12 string 1998 Larrivee C-10E with Mucha Lady IR/Sitka Electrics: 1999 PRS Custom 22 Artist Package - Whale Blue/Ebony 1995 Fender Custom Shop 1960 Strat - Dakota/Maple 1997 Fender California Series Fat Strat - CAR/Maple 1968 Teisco e-110 Sunburst/Maple |
#74
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Jim, I largely agree with you but want to point out that those "made up" popular names are both a blessing and a curse. They save us from using the trees true identification based on Latin names for genus and species while introducing a bit of inaccuracy. An example are the commonplace (at least here in Virginia) cedar trees which are actually junipers or Juniperus virginiana...
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Emerald X20 Emerald X20-12 Fender Robert Cray Stratocaster Martin D18 Ambertone Martin 000-15sm |
#75
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"She's seen the ad, she thinks it's nice, Better work harder, I've seen the price." "...'cause there ain't no one for to teach you no grammar." Seagull Entourage Grand Parlor Seagull S6 Original 2011 60th Anniversary Telecaster Fender Blues Jr |