Figuring out this 5D guitar sound - equipment?

[NordicLights]

Hi to everyone!

Can someone please explain to me what kind of equipment you need to get such a dramatic 5D sound from an acoustic guitar —besides the obvious great guitar in the first place?

https://youtu.be/tbDY6m7c7qc?si=hoIwdlK0b5pNvZOj

After many years of search and listening of 1000 recordings, to me this is the best guitar sound I heard until now.

I was somehow set to buy the Jon Gomm Ibanez JGM10 in the next few months as I like all the specs of a guitar very much, plus the look, plus the scale lenght and everything else and I always wanted to have kind of 3D dramatic plugged-in sound on the stage, but after hearing this double LDC miked studio 5D sound of Keiko playing, I started doubting if I could ever get close to this kind of sound from that Fishman Rare Earth 3way system, even if I get things like Tonedexter, acoustic guitar effect pedals, ect.

Now if you listen also this second recording as well (Seiko playing again)

https://youtu.be/NfRRutJd6Ug?si=O6hIxF8XPP5VsR1i

there is a whole dimension or two of sound missing in comparison to the first recording. Was this just some echo or reverb added to the 1st recording, or is it the impact of the studio, or is it a more complex process to get it and only a pair of vintage tube mikes can help?

I might be completely wrong about everything, but I would just like to figure out and crack what equipment to buy besides the guitar and amp to get as close to this sound on the stage or in my home with JGM10.

Thanks for the help!

[rick-slo]

In your recording above: Good recording space. Good guitar and in a tuning (and chording) where the
notes usually harmonizing with themselves (low tempo tunes accent this).
A fair amount of post recording reverb added and a good reverb on a piece
like this gives much of that dreamy sound.

Here is one of my favorite sounding guitar recordings (there is a pickup on the guitar adding depth to the sound)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1x1txmfuV8

Rest in peace Michael.

[KevWind]

Oh boy where to start
First the kind of equipment ?

Well for starters one of if not the single most important factors is not equipment (per.se.) looks like she is sitting in a multi hundred thousand purpose built recording studio live room So lets say $500k to $1.5 million minimum

Second she is sitting in front of a pair of outstanding microphones
They are : (I believe)
On the left (camera view) either a vintage Telefunken ELAM 251 Tube mic Likely north of $10k -$12 k or a good modern replica of a 251 likely $4k to $6

On the right looks like Neumann U87 FET mic either vintage $4500 and up or a modern U87 Ai $3500


From there impossible to know the rest of the chain but based on the room and mics Could be being tracked into something like a NEVE or similar high end console say $150k and up (depending on size) or into any number of great outboard preamps, EQ,s and Compressors all likely $3000 k and up per unit

And Yes sounds like a good bit of reverb but clean reverb so maybe something like the hardware Bricasti M7 or Quantec ?

Yes I also sincerely doubt you going to anywhere near that kind of sound with pickup system

And lastly the second video looks like might be the same guitar BUT as for the difference in sound one need only look at the room she is in for starters, and then likely everything else from there

[NordicLights]

Thank you both for your initial replies.

Thanks for recording rick-slo, I always loved the playing of Michael Chapdelaine, a great inspiration he is. RIP

Originally Posted by KevWind

Oh boy where to start
First the kind of equipment ?

Well for starters one of if not the single most important factors is not equipment (per.se.) looks like she is sitting in a multi hundred thousand purpose built recording studio live room So lets say $500k to $1.5 million minimum

Second she is sitting in front of a pair of outstanding microphones
They are : (I believe)
On the left (camera view) either a vintage Telefunken ELAM 251 Tube mic Likely north of $10k -$12 k or a good modern replica of a 251 likely $4k to $6

On the right looks like Neumann U87 FET mic either vintage $4500 and up or a modern U87 Ai $3500


From there impossible to know the rest of the chain but based on the room and mics Could be being tracked into something like a NEVE or similar high end console say $150k and up (depending on size) or into any number of great outboard preamps, EQ,s and Compressors all likely $3000 k and up per unit

And Yes sounds like a good bit of reverb but clean reverb so maybe something like the hardware Bricasti M7 or Quantec ?

Yes I also sincerely doubt you going to anywhere near that kind of sound with pickup system

And lastly the second video looks like might be the same guitar BUT as for the difference in sound one need only look at the room she is in for starters, and then likely everything else from there

Thank you too KevWind. Yes, I knew that she was in an extremely expensive studio with rare vintage mics and deluxe equipment. I guess I also made the question too complicated, or it is just the fact that English is not my native language and I put the question wrong.

What I wanted to know was which gear to use to be able to add those extra layers of dreamy sound when actually playing live, with a multi-way pickup system and a fine amp or condenser microphone in a cheap home studio. But the question was more about getting as close as possible to this sound at the moment you are playing and being in the room and listening in real time with your ears, not about listening to the recording after the post-recording reverb was added with headphones or studio monitors. I hope I am not making the question even more confusing.

This was my favorite sound before I found the Seiko recording and it also has some of that extra layers of sound, even thought less than the Seiko, but it is obviously recording with mikes again https://youtu.be/ccBTxHdp2Do?si=YGbi3jopTqPb7WLE

Anyway, here below, is one more example for my question, but it is not a guitar. Again, the same music in two examples, the first one with those extra layers of sound and magic and the second one with less.

With extra layers https://youtu.be/98BFLMlCJts?si=awCjdrElbMMI6iqI

...and same music with less https://youtu.be/Z__E_gPumsQ?si=sQZqrWwOVfW-A1dI

I am asking this kind of basic question due to the fact that I always played guitar only acoustically (besides the electric one), so acoustic amplification and recording are new to me. (I am in early 50s), and I don't yet have a clue what I will need to buy, for getting close to that result.

Thank you.

[Bob Womack]

Mmm... The body side mic is a Neumann U-47 tube condenser ($20k) or repro or clone, likely a clone because it is so clean. It does have the diamond nameplate but some clones go that far. That will give you a slight peak around 4.5k and a bottom end that goes down to the earth's mantle. Yep, the neck side mic is a Neumann U-87 solid state condenser, or a clone. The console is a Solid State Logic SL4000, probably a G series. You can get a decent used one for about $80k. The mic pres are transformerless. From it you will get a snappy upper end and clear bottom end. I have no idea whether they are using separate preamps but there are some racked up Neve preamps in the control room. Were it me I would probably just use the SSL preamps.

They are monitoring Genlecs (inboard) and I don't know what the outboard monitors are.

Bob

[Doug Young]

I think the differences in your first 2 examples are the difference between a high end studio and a home recording. Everything from the environment to the mix is different. The 1st one is *way* louder, for one thing, which influences your perception. But even that aside, they're radically different in every way. The 2nd looks like its recorded at home in a small room. We can't even see what mics (if any) are used. There's tons of reverb on both, but on the 1st, the mix is good, the raw guitar sound is huge - probably compressed and EQ'd, while on the 2nd the guitar just disappears into a less impressive sounding reverb. The 2nd seems to have a chorus on it, I assume she's plugged in? In contrast, the 1st is great mics in a great sound room, presumably with a good engineer who knows how to capture and process the sound.

As far as getting that sound (the 1st) live, that will be a challenge. But you could come close if you play in a great acoustically-designed listening room with a great sound system, good mics and good reverb. Basically like the studio, but with an audience. I've heard sound this good at the Freight & Salvage in Berkeley, for example. Very high end room, designed for acoustics from the ground up. Mega buck Myer's sound system and so on. Every element contributes, and everything has to be high quality. If you're asking how to get that sound using a combo amp in a coffee house, it's probably not going to happen. The amplification system will have a huge impact, and most things you can carry into a gig aren't going to cut it, regardless of your pickups, etc. Room acoustics also matter, and most non-concert rooms aren't going to help you.

There is a lot of nice gear out there, that can make you sound good if you have to use pickups, tho, within limits. Pickups are better than ever these days. Tonedexter will help you get rid of remaining "quack". An internal mic can help a lot too. I use a stereo setup that produces a sound I'm certainly happy with when the room and sound system supports it - the stereo aspect can help produce some sense of space. There are a number of really good sounding reverb pedals out there as well. For this sound, again, preferably stereo reverb (with the assumption that both room layout, acoustics and the sound system can support that). And there's nothing to prevent you from using a full rack system, with full-fledged studio effects, either, other than expense, hassle of carrying it, etc. Anyway, overall, I'd say "can you do it?" Yes, or at least get close enough that a live audience will be happy as long as you're not doing an A/B compare. Can you do it on a budget? Not likely. Can you do it in an arbitrary coffee shop, bar, etc? Probably not.

[rick-slo]

The answer to the 5D part of the question is mostly related to the reverb used.

[Doug Young]

Agreed, the studio sound is nice, but what I mostly hear is tons of a very spacious reverb.

[runamuck]

I'd guess that what you like about that is mostly the reverb. I use Seventh Heaven, a plugin based on an expensive Bricasti. Although I never use anywhere near that amount of reverb, I can get that sound using a chamber - Sunset Chamber to be precise.

But aside from that, it's a high quality recording and a good sounding guitar which have have a large part to play here.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by NordicLights

Hi to everyone!

Can someone please explain to me what kind of equipment you need to get such a dramatic 5D sound from an acoustic guitar —besides the obvious great guitar in the first place?

https://youtu.be/tbDY6m7c7qc?si=hoIwdlK0b5pNvZOj

After many years of search and listening of 1000 recordings, to me this is the best guitar sound I heard until now.

I was somehow set to buy the Jon Gomm Ibanez JGM10 in the next few months as I like all the specs of a guitar very much, plus the look, plus the scale lenght and everything else and I always wanted to have kind of 3D dramatic plugged-in sound on the stage, but after hearing this double LDC miked studio 5D sound of Keiko playing, I started doubting if I could ever get close to this kind of sound from that Fishman Rare Earth 3way system, even if I get things like Tonedexter, acoustic guitar effect pedals, ect.

Now if you listen also this second recording as well (Seiko playing again)

https://youtu.be/NfRRutJd6Ug?si=O6hIxF8XPP5VsR1i

there is a whole dimension or two of sound missing in comparison to the first recording. Was this just some echo or reverb added to the 1st recording, or is it the impact of the studio, or is it a more complex process to get it and only a pair of vintage tube mikes can help?

I might be completely wrong about everything, but I would just like to figure out and crack what equipment to buy besides the guitar and amp to get as close to this sound on the stage or in my home with JGM10.

Thanks for the help!

Am I just dumb? I have absolutely no conception of what "5D" means. Hopefully it's something new that I just missed.

Seiko's playing is lovely, but these recordings are just drenched WAY too heavily in reverb. That's all I hear because it's so over the top.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Am I just dumb? I have absolutely no conception of what "5D" means. Hopefully it's something new that I just missed.

Seiko's playing is lovely, but these recordings are just drenched WAY too heavily in reverb. That's all I hear because it's so over the top.

"5D" = 3D on steroids

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

Mmm... The body side mic is a Neumann U-47 tube condenser ($20k) or repro or clone, likely a clone because it is so clean. It does have the diamond nameplate but some clones go that far. That will give you a slight peak around 4.5k and a bottom end that goes down to the earth's mantle. Yep, the neck side mic is a Neumann U-87 solid state condenser, or a clone. The console is a Solid State Logic SL4000, probably a G series. You can get a decent used one for about $80k. The mic pres are transformerless. From it you will get a snappy upper end and clear bottom end. I have no idea whether they are using separate preamps but there are some racked up Neve preamps in the control room. Were it me I would probably just use the SSL preamps.

They are monitoring Genlecs (inboard) and I don't know what the outboard monitors are.

Bob

Yes after looking agin I think you are correct the tube mic is likely 47 Neumann type.
I thought the top of the basket looked a little flattened off for a Neumann and more like the basket top on my ADK 251 clone. but the cable connection does look like a Neumann

[hazmuz]

are there also 2 akg 414s as "room microphones" (on left and right top corners of the screen - partly seen)?

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by hazmuz

are there also 2 akg 414s as "room microphones" (on left and right top corners of the screen - partly seen)?

I see them on the reverse angle.

Bob

[jim1960]

The 67 mic looks to appears to have a sticker on the back just below the basket which looks like it may have a phone number on it and it looks like a sticker is on the power supply also. That's typical of a rental so perhaps a vintage 67 or the reissue. The coupler on the cable isn't quite right but it could be a custom made cable, which would point more at it being a vintage 67. Just a guess, though.