My worst purchase of the year 2010: The Loar LH-700. Be careful!

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by backdrifter

..
On a side note - I once owned an Eastman AR904 archtop for a few months. Though also made in China, the quality and workmanship on it were top notch.

As you are in the market for another archtop, why did you sell the Eastman...and why not consider another?

[leeasam]

I also saw no China bashing from Eltjo. What I did read was that no matter who made a guitar at the pricepoint he was buying it that kind of quality is inexcusable!
I pretty much have owned Taylors but have for my son bought a gUild GAD series which was an excellent intrument- not US made. Well he decided back a while to sell it for getting funds for a bike. Well now last year he decided to try guitar again and went to a local small town music store that carries only overseas maded intruments( low dollar) and played a WALDEN D50 that is pretty amazing. Quality is flawless and playability out of the box great and tone os very good. Would put it over a Taylor BB and GS mini. Actually fairs very well against a 110. I got it WITH a MBT hardshell case for a good bit less than MAP of a Baby Taylor.

Many others have played it and also found it very impressive for the price. SO it can be done-- quality intrument at a good price-


DISCLAIMER-- I got to PLAY it and SEE it before purchase. Not sure I would pull the trigger buying site unseen with out a good return policy. I bought some years back a Silvertone acoustic based on many good reviews from MF and it was a total piece a crap. Unplayable and totally wacked neck angle-- then tried a Washburn that was highly touted on the AGF and found the tone to be absolutly crap. like rubber bands over a carboard box. SO take many positive reviews with a grain of salt.

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by leeasam

...

... take many positive reviews with a grain of salt.

Most definitely.

[ironman187]

Originally Posted by lennylux

I'm not interested in a war on words Picker, I was merely trying to drift it away from the generalised China-baiting that has been a little too prominent on here of late.

I do understand you frustrations and disappointment, all I'm saying is at such a massively discounted price compared to the real-deal, it is never going to be without it's issues. For what it's worth 3 Gretsch prolines (Terrada, Japan) and 1 Canadian Larrivee aside, all my guitars are US built.

Derailing manufacturers en masse with statements like "I won't buy from China" only gets the bigots & bruisers riled-up lately and the threads go all political yet again. Questioning how a manufacturer with such dubious QC can be hailed for the guitar of the year on the other hand is a fairly valid thread

But would such a thread inspire as many responses as a good ole China-bashing, this week I'm not so sure at all.

p.s. nice sig by the way.

You do realize you are the only one insinuating any Chinese bashing don't you. None took place as far as I could see, and it sounds like there are other threads in which you could readily debate such "anti Chinese" stances, but this is not one of them. Your only intent in this thread seemed to be to derail it so you could harp about how China really isn't that bad, shame on you!


@ OP.
I would expect better quality from a Walmart guitar. It's sad that they let that out the door. Is it a "one off" mistake, it could have been, but after seeing that, I certainly would demand paid shipping both ways were I wishing to purchase one of their guitars.

[lennylux]

Originally Posted by ironman187

You do realize you are the only one insinuating any Chinese bashing don't you. None took place as far as I could see, and it sounds like there are other threads in which you could readily debate such "anti Chinese" stances, but this is not one of them. Your only intent in this thread seemed to be to derail it so you could harp about how China really isn't that bad, shame on you!


@ OP.
I would expect better quality from a Walmart guitar. It's sad that they let that out the door. Is it a "one off" mistake, it could have been, but after seeing that, I certainly would demand paid shipping both ways were I wishing to purchase one of their guitars.

WHAT???? Are you serious? pointing out that others saying "I won't buy Chinese" as opposed to "I won't buy a Loar LH700" makes me the villain here? Is that really what you're saying? Making it worse on myself by fairly gently reminding people it's a guitar board not a US politics board? Shame on me indeed.

This whole week has been fairly anti-Chinese with lots of people throwing their tuppence worth into threads like this, the CF Martin copyright in China debacle, the comparison between fairly low-end Chinese models and high-end US models. The condemning and sweeping generalisations across the board for all things Chinese have been pretty hard to ignore, but if it makes you feel better to blame me then go ahead. The OP has every right to be negative about the Loar LH700 and his one in particular, nobody can deny this, but when he posted "Next time I'll buy a Martin made in Nazareth, not Chinese" the quality comparison implied is seriously misleading. ...but how dare I, I should have just said good post, down with those Chinese, American workers blah blah blah. Shame on me for the second time.

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by lennylux

WHAT???? Are you serious? pointing out that others saying "I won't buy Chinese" as opposed to "I won't buy a Loar LH700" makes me the villain here? Is that really what you're saying? Making it worse on myself by fairly gently reminding people it's a guitar board not a US politics board? Shame on me indeed.

This whole week has been fairly anti-Chinese with lots of people throwing their tuppence worth into threads like this, the CF Martin copyright in China debacle, the comparison between fairly low-end Chinese models and high-end US models. The condemning and sweeping generalisations across the board for all things Chinese have been pretty hard to ignore, but if it makes you feel better to blame me then go ahead. The OP has every right to be negative about the Loar LH700 and his one in particular, nobody can deny this, but when he posted "Next time I'll buy a Martin made in Nazareth, not Chinese" the quality comparison implied is seriously misleading. ...but how dare I, I should have just said good post, down with those Chinese, American workers blah blah blah. Shame on me for the second time.

Just for the sake of discussion, do you take these comments as "bashing" ethnically Chinese people, the country, the perceived quality of Chinese produced products..or a combination thereof ?

[lennylux]

Jeff, it's a combination, if people take a fairly comparable instrument and compare, then find in favour of US built nobody can have any disagreement. I have said on several occasions, aside from 3 Gretsch prolines made in Japan and a Larrivee acoustic, ALL my guitars are US built, ALL high-end, predominantly custom shop stuff and I bought these because of quality, sound and aesthetics like the average buyer does. I have no quibble with my US built guitars.

Within the CF Martin in China furore, I pointed out the typical person buying one of these dubious guitars would hardly likely to have been a real CF Martin & Co customer anyway and that the doubt these dubious Chinese branded CF Martins would cause would upset the ebay market more than the real CF Martin's market so while the real CF Martin & Co might be infringed in intellectual property terms, in real market terms it may force many used market customers to save that big longer and buy new, thus selling more guitars for the real CF Martin & Co.

Inevitably the threads have edged in to the political realm one by one. While this is to be expected it doesn't fairly stretch to unfair comparison between low-end Chinese and high-end US. Neither would be it be fair if the parameters were reversed. As I stated earlier in the week I am one of the only ones in my family not to be US Born so before I'm accused of being a US basher this is most definitely not the case.

[lennylux]

Just to further that, the OP's post is a very worthwhile post regarding this model, but only this model, not Chinese manufacturing in its entirety.

To be clear I am not trying to derail, I'm trying to keep us on track about guitars build quality not China/US political and economical ponderings.

[Jeff M]

Good points Lenny.

Comparing "low end" guitars produced in China to "high end" US guitars is an unfair comparison.
A more fair comparison would be comparably priced guitars.
I guess when somebody mentions "guitars" however, I don't think of China as producing the "highest quality" mass produced guitars....but the US.

With cars. I equate "high quality cars" with Germany or Japan (at least until Toyota's recent problems) rather than the US or Italy.
Food......the US, Italy, France rather than, shudder, Britain. (At least until recently).

I guess I see more folks flare up about comments about Chinese made products than those from other countries. I get the impression of "defensiveness".

[lennylux]

Hey Jeff,

That was my assessment, unfair comparisons are of no real value here, a fair comparison, yeah bring them on, I'm sure there are ways to compete with the Chinese manufacturers despite their labour cost advantages. The fact there are so many lemons, the general workmanship perception and the political climate will deter a larger customer base for quite some time to come anyway.

There are serious professional manufacturers in China making proper instruments of a high quality, to tar them in with the gangsters, fly-by-nights and crooks is utterly unfair and serves little purpose on a guitar related forum. It's ok to mention ethics and principles in one breath but sadly these ethics and principles are all too often questionable within US manufacture and production also currently and historically. All week we've heard of Martins designs being stolen, well that has gone on in US manufacture for a nigh-on a century too, as has gross profiteering and bringing questionable products to market while low-balling the employees involved.

But, back to task, as I said earlier in the thread, rather than continuing with geographical manufacturing bias perhaps a more worthy thread would be on the consistency of Loar products based on evidence of such lemons and how that can relate to a 'guitar of the year' award on here.

I don't agree with the US - food correlation at all, but that's not for here, we're a guitar forum after all.

[Jeff M]

Well, true. Much US food can be pretty bad...but it is a h3ll of a lot easier to get a really good meal in a major US city than in Britain.

Back to guitars....
one issue I have with Chinese made guitars is what seems to be a "non-transparency" of manufacturing.
I can tell you exactly where Martin, Taylor, Larrivee, Gibson makes their instruments.
I have no idea where they are made in China.
This leads to, as you noted, the lumping together of high quality reputable manufacturers with less skilled/reputable builders.
I don't see any Chinese "brand names"...just some "All American" sounding name chosen by whoever is importing the guitars. Combine that with importers changing manufacturers and you end up with lack of real BUILDER identity.
I'd love to hear more about who is actually building quality guitars made in China...not just who is importing them..but that kind of information is sorely lacking.

[lennylux]

Could be the extensive presence of American fast food joints in the UK these days.

True regarding the information audit trail of manufacturing though. I suppose this will come in time. I also agree that a strong branding identity would be required but surely that is what Eastman, Blueridge and Recording King are attempting to do.

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by lennylux

Could be the extensive presence of American fast food joints in the UK these days.

True regarding the information audit trail of manufacturing though. I suppose this will come in time. I also agree that a strong branding identity would be required but surely that is what Eastman, Blueridge and Recording King are attempting to do.

But what Eastman, Blueridge, Recording King are doing is branding THEIR names...not the name of the actual guitar builders. Those seem to be interchangeable.
We hear about brands like Epiphone, Mastebuilt, Blueridge changing what plant is building their guitars every so often, striking new contracts with different builders.
It's treated like clothing manufacturing, where names like Calvin Klein stick their labels on products made at nameless overseas plants that change from year to year.
Not bad for clothing. Not good for guitars.

Yep. McDonalds et. al suck..but I'm talking about real restaurants...not fast food chains.

[lennylux]

I do agree but we had much the same scenario in Korea before the Peerless name came to favour. Before that the same in Japan, then the Terrada plant became the 'one'.

I suppose the Chinese manufacturing plants are in their infancy in dealing with western standards and product expectations, soon enough people will be referencing their great 'xxx' model made in 'yyy' factory in China. I guess we've seen it all before so we should be able to reasonably predict it will settle to production standard expectations dictated by price like it has done with other countries manufacturing processes.

All the best.

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by lennylux

I do agree but we had much the same scenario in Korea before the Peerless name came to favour. Before that the same in Japan, then the Terrada plant became the 'one'.

I suppose the Chinese manufacturing plants are in their infancy in dealing with western standards and product expectations, soon enough people will be referencing their great 'xxx' model made in 'yyy' factory in China. I guess we've seen it all before so we should be able to reasonably predict it will settle to production standard expectations dictated by price like it has done with other countries manufacturing processes.

All the best.

I own a couple of Terrada plant Epiphone archtops (Epi. Elitist Broadway and Byrdland) , and they are great guitars in and of themselves, even more so when you compare what they cost to the cost of their Gibson counterparts.
(Production since moved to somewhere in China. Manufacturer unknown.)