Sapele vs African Mahogany

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Interesting idea, but I wonder if the perception that one timber is inherently 'better' than another, might inhibit sales of guitars using the latter-assuming, of course, that one inhabits places where stuff like that is discussed, ad infinitum!

. For example it has been suggested that sapele is an inferior tone wood to, for example, 'Genuine Mahogany'.

To those who prefer the tonal qualities of sapele (Entandrophragma cylindricum) over Swietenia macrophylla or Swietenia mahagoni, sapele is not an inferior wood.

[John Arnold]

Martin's "Genuine Mahogany" is African Mahogany, not South American.

I don't know your information source, but according to Linda Davis-Wallen (who is Martin's wood buyer) 'genuine mahogany' is only Swietenia macrophylla (AKA Honduran, bigleaf).
All the woods mentioned are so similar in performance that I believe nobody could distinguish them in a blind listening test. And other than sapele (which has a more defined, narrower ribbon stripe when quartered), i doubt that most could distinguish them based on appearance.
The reason the big manufacturers change the species of 'mahogany' being used from time to time is simple....difficulty in maintaining a consistent supply of quality material. The current situation with Honduran mahogany is grim....lower quality and less availability each and every year for the past 25 years or so.
Martin used African mahogany (khaya) in the 1970's for backs and sides, which was confirmed by Linda Davis-Wallen. I have also seen Philippine 'mahogany' (lauan) necks on Martins in the early-1920's. Unlike the other woods mentioned, lauan is not even in the same family.


.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

I don't know your information source, but according to Linda Davis-Wallen (who is Martin's wood buyer) 'genuine mahogany' is only Swietenia macrophylla (AKA Honduran, bigleaf).
All the woods mentioned are so similar in performance that I believe nobody could distinguish them in a blind listening test. And other than sapele (which has a more defined, narrower ribbon stripe when quartered), i doubt that most could distinguish them based on appearance.
The reason the big manufacturers change the species of 'mahogany' being used from time to time is simple....difficulty in maintaining a consistent supply of quality material. The current situation with Honduran mahogany is grim....lower quality and less availability each and every year for the past 25 years or so.
Martin used African mahogany (khaya) in the 1970's for backs and sides, which was confirmed by Linda Davis-Wallen. I have also seen Philippine 'mahogany' (lauan) necks on Martins in the early-1920's. Unlike the other woods mentioned, lauan is not even in the same family.


.

The original mahogany was Swietenia mahagoni commonly known as Cuban mahogany. For quite some time, Swietenia macrophylla, commonly called Honduras mahogany, and Swietenia humilis which has the common name caoba or Pacific coast mahogany have been accepted as legitimate mahogany.

The taxonomic term, family, is so broad as to include trees, shrubs and flowering plants sometimes with no obvious relationship to each other.

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

Martin's Mahogany is Sipo.

Yes, but it can mean other things too. What Martin calls True Mahogany, Select Mahogany, or just Mahogany includes all species of the larger botanical Mahogany family, Meliaceae. So far that includes the following:
Sapele Entandrophragma cylindricum (tropical Africa)
Utile or Sipo, Entandrophragma utile (tropical Africa)
African Mahogany Khaya ivorensis (tropical Africa)
Spanish cedar Cedrela odorata (Central and South America)

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

Martin's "Genuine Mahogany" is South American Mahogany.

As John says, that term only refers to Honduran mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) at Martin.

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

Martin's "Select Hardwood" could be a number of things but is usually Spanish Cedar.

It can be Spanish Cedar, but it can be other woods too. It's not "usually" Spanish Cedar. It is a catchall spec that allows them to use what is available. Honduran Mahogany, Spanish Cedar, Sapele, Sipo/Utile or African mahogany (Khaya) all fall under that umbrella at Martin.

It depends on the Series too. While the GE's were listed with "Select Hardwood" necks, I never saw one that wasn't mahogany.

Martin also uses necks with wings on the headstock and two-piece necks now. Wood availability is a problem.

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

(I think Sipo and Utile are different names for the same wood - Entandrophragma utile)

That is correct.

[rwmct]

Originally Posted by TBman

I was thinking the same thing. I guess considering a purchase for a possible re-sale later on down the road you might want to know exactly what is what, but other than that it reeks of cork sniffing bs. Which is ok if you're into that, I guess, but to a lot of us its well.... Kinda silly. Just play the darn thing.

"Diamonds" made of glass may look as good as diamonds that are actual diamonds, but if I am buying a diamond I would like a real one. A fake Rolex may tell time every bit as good as a real one, but I kind of would like a real one if I was led to believe I was actually buying one.

There is more to a guitar than tone and playability. For example, a lot of us have an attachment to the guitars our musical heroes played when we were kids. Now that I can actually afford some of them, I would like to get one, even if I could spend less and get something that is otherwise similar in tone.

I don't care if some wood sounds just like Mahogany or looks like Mahogany. If I think I am buying Mahogany guitar, I want a Mahogany guitar.

Edit: I deleted some of the original content of this post because I hate to have this thread get locked. IMO, the discussion of what materials well known guitar models are actually made of is important information, and someone new to guitars who does not already know this stuff can learn a lot from these threads. Myself, I was more or less aware that manufacturers were finessing the issue, but was not familiar with all the info in the thread.

Some people new to the instrument are not aware that if the description just says "rosewood", for example, it usually really means that there is very little rosewood. Whether that makes a difference to some people or not, it is certainly the kind of thing that belongs on an acoustic guitar discussion board.

I would hate for this kind of thread to end up being forbidden, and us all reduced to posting vague hints about the facts while avoiding a forthright discussion of the topic.

[Authentic]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

I don't know your information source, but according to Linda Davis-Wallen (who is Martin's wood buyer) 'genuine mahogany' is only Swietenia macrophylla (AKA Honduran, bigleaf).

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I found the information from Linda on the Martin forum:

Due to dwindling quality and supplies with increased demand, we have had to broaden our species base for Mahoganies in order to continue making the volume of quality instruments required. Genuine Mahogany refers specifically and only to Mahoganies of the genus Swietenia. In our case, that would be Swietenia macrophylla - both native and plantation grown.

All of our Mahogany is Solid wood, not plywood, so we can get that term out of the way.

True Mahogany (which we refer to as Select Mahogany) includes all species of the larger botanical Mahogany family, Meliaceae. The mahogany family includes the following species, for our purposes, and are used as availability dictates:
Sapele Entandrophragma cylindricum (tropical Africa)
Utile or Sipo, Entandrophragma utile (tropical Africa)
African Mahogany Khaya ivorensis (tropical Africa)
Spanish cedar Cedrela odorata (Central and South America)
Note: There are others too, but we are not utilizing them currently.

The 15 series is currently made of Sipo, and Mahogany as available. If a custom quote specifically calls for Genuine Mahogany, that is what it is supposed to get. We are keeping Genuine Mahogany set aside for customs as required and dovetailed neck guitars.

Sipo/Utile is generally the closest in appearance to Genuine Mahogany, and has the same tonal characteristics.

Hope that answers your questions. Feel free to share my answer on the forum.

Best regards,
Linda

Based on the above quote, I'm not sure if "we are keeping Genuine Mahogany set aside for dovetailed neck guitars" means that they are using Genuine Mahogany for ALL dovetailed neck guitars (and I don't know if that would include the "simple dovetailed" necks or not), or if they are simply keeping them aside for dovetailed neck guitars, but that dovetailed neck guitars may use Genuine Mahogany or True Mahogany depending on availability.

Like Martin could keep aside a set of Brazilian Rosewood for D-28s only (and not for D-16s), but they will be mostly using East Indian Rosewood for D-28s and maybe once in a blue moon use Brazilian Rosewood for a special edition D-28.

It would be good to get clarification on what "keeping it aside for dovetailed neck guitars" means:

1.They only use Genuine Mahogany for dovetailed neck guitars, and do not use any True Mahogany for dovetailed neck guitars.
2. Genuine Mahogany is simply kept aside for future use for dovetailed neck guitars, but is not currently being used.
3. They use both Genuine Mahogany and True Mahogany for dovetailed neck guitars. If this is the case, it would be good to know the Genuine : True Mahogany ratio being used on D-18s, for example.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by rwmct

"Diamonds" made of glass may look as good as diamonds that are actual diamonds, but if I am buying a diamond I would like a real one. A fake Rolex may tell time every bit as good as a real one, but I kind of would like a real one if I was led to believe I was actually buying one.

There is more to a guitar than tone and playability. For example, a lot of us have an attachment to the guitars our musical heroes played when we were kids. Now that I can actually afford some of them, I would like to get one, even if I could spend less and get something that is otherwise similar in tone.

I don't care if some wood sounds just like Mahogany or looks like Mahogany. If I think I am buying Mahogany guitar, I want a Mahogany guitar.

Edit: I deleted some of the original content of this post because I hate to have this thread get locked. IMO, the discussion of what materials well known guitar models are actually made of is important information, and someone new to guitars who does not already know this stuff can learn a lot from these threads. Myself, I was more or less aware that manufacturers were finessing the issue, but was not familiar with all the info in the thread.

Some people new to the instrument are not aware that if the description just says "rosewood", for example, it usually really means that there is very little rosewood. Whether that makes a difference to some people or not, it is certainly the kind of thing that belongs on an acoustic guitar discussion board.

I would hate for this kind of thread to end up being forbidden, and us all reduced to posting vague hints about the facts while avoiding a forthright discussion of the topic.

I fully understand where you're coming from, but let's not lose the ability to step back and chuckle at ourselves from time to time. . Nothing wrong with good natured ribbing as that was my intent. Also you said in another thread that you aren't experienced enough to evaluate a used guitar? I've been playing over 50 years and your talking to me like your some kind of expert. This is the exact bs I'm laughing at.

[rwmct]

Originally Posted by TBman

I've been playing over 50 years and your talking to me like your some kind of expert. This is the exact bs I'm laughing at.

I don't see what playing time or skill level has to do with the topic. If I was holding forth on the musical qualities of these tonewoods, I can see why you might raise that point (though some novices have marvelous "ears." I am not one of them). But I am not claiming to be able to tell the difference, tone wise. I am saying that I want to know what my guitars are made of, and am not happy with the way the manufacturers try to finesse that point, often in language that is intended to give a buyer the impression that they are made of something they are not, in fact, made off.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by rwmct

I don't see what playing time or skill level has to do with the topic. If I was holding forth on the musical qualities of these tonewoods, I can see why you might raise that point (though some novices have marvelous "ears." I am not one of them). But I am not claiming to be able to tell the difference, tone wise. I am saying that I want to know what my guitars are made of, and am not happy with the way the manufacturers try to finesse that point, often in language that is intended to give a buyer the impression that they are made of something they are not, in fact, made off.

I agree you should know and you don't have to be a super player to appreciate something good. It's just that sometimes we sound like that middle age guy that buys a $5,000 set of golf clubs to shoot 120 and brags about them to the kid who caddies but unknown to the guy the kid attends college on a golf scholarship and shoots in the low 80's. All the kid can do is nod and smile.

As guitar nerds we all get silly sometimes, lol.

[Nate the Skate]

My Larrivee P-05 mahogany gloss parlor has a solid khaya dovetail neck and solid khaya back and sides. I can't tell much difference between khaya and Honduran mahogany, in looks or sound. I know Larrivee gets its khaya logs from seriously old-growth trees, logs which are often more than 5' in diameter (as seen in a Larrivee video of Jean's trip to Africa). The quartersawn khaya Larrivee uses is top notch. Combine that with Larrivee's superior builds and you get some very sweet guitars for a good price. Yes, of course I would like a '50s Gibson J-50 in mint condition, with Honduran mahogany, but, short of that, I'll take my Larrivees. I also have a Larrivee L-04 (basically an L-03R w/gloss top) that is sublime.

[sbmackie]

I've got a 000-15SM on the way from Martin as I've been A/B-ing a 12 fret Mahogany Guitar for a while. It compared favorably to my ear with a Taylor 522 12 fret. Learned Martin uses several species of Mahogany woods to build the 15 series, so to get a better understanding I called Martin and spoke with Rob.
He said: It will most likely be Sapele, but it could be African Mahogany or South American. The Sapele will be easy to see as it has more pronounced striping. The African will be about the same color and texture as the South American, but will have a less deep look to it.
In terms of hardness, and therefore how much high end is produced, it goes (from soft to hard) South American, African, Sapele. That being said, all are much softer then Rosewood, and there is variation within each species. The tops will be of the same species as the back and sides.
I'm hoping purely for aesthetic reasons I get a dark, even grained, South American or African Mahogany example. But, I'm not overly concerned as it was the sound (and I'll admit a bit of the simple retro vibe) I was buying, not a specific wood.
Scott