Ceo-7 vs 0012-28 vs Boucher parlor HG

[kharma44]

Hello!

Quite simple, I plan on maybe getting one of these to replace my OM-21.

I will mostly play fingerstyle singersongwriter songs on it, but also just noodle instrumentals too.

I also have 000-15sm and a J45.

I want to trade the OM because I thought I would get along better with the 2 5/32 spacing and I find the mids a little too scooped and since I play with bare fingers (no nails) it lacks a little clarity, especially since I can't dig in as much between the strings. Maybe it's also that I just prefer mahogany...

I also want a smaller guitarto play on the couch that is a little smaller then the OM-21.I also think I also think I prefer the shorter scale when playing fingerstyle. I might give rosewood another chance if the guitar shape can push the mids a little more forward around 2khz

I think I can get along with a chunkier neck than the MLO but the 1 13/16 nut of the 0012-28 I am not sure.

Anyone got a chance to compare the guitars above?

[NickTuneUp]

I have three Boucher parlors coming in the fall: Rosewood, Bubinga, and Mahogany. I'm very excited to test those out and make some videos. Until then, if you get the Boucher, be sure to give us some updates!!!

[TheGITM]

I can't give any comparative input, but can say that I feel in love with the 0012-28. It does have the 1 13/16" nut width, which some don't care for... but it works well for me. It's lovely in just about every way.

[leew3]

I have a CEO-7 and 000-28 12 fret. Both have adi tops, the 12 fret is rosewood b/s, the CEO-7 of course is mahogany. Either will be wonderful for fingerstyle. The 000 is full scale so a bit more of a stretch at times, and is the louder of the two by quite a bit. I feel like I'm cheating playing fingerstyle on the 12 fret as it's so responsive but the CEO-7 is equally lush, complex and a short scale so somewhat easier to play. I doubt that I've helped much as I love both of these guitars, but these are my thought FWIW.

[gmel555]

I’d think a Boucher parlor (~“0”?) would be a different “animal” than the 00 Martins…?

Originally Posted by leew3

The 000-28 is full scale so a bit more of a stretch….

Isn’t the 000-28 12 fret 24.9” just like the CEO7? The 0012 28 modern deluxe is also 24.9”.

[Corndog]

The CEO7 isn't but a bit smaller than an OM. I almost bought a clean used one, but the neck and lower bout size weren't what I was looking for.
A 0012-28MD will feel much smaller, much more like a parlor.
It has a narrower waste and smaller upper bout. And the nut will feel closer to you as well.

I've had an eye on the 12 fret MD for awhile as well. I haven't played one and am curious, like you, how I'd get on with that neck.
The hard frets and wood binding add interest, for me.

I know nothing about the Boucher.

[markcrawford]

I am sure the Boucher would be wonderful from everything I have read and heard online. I will never own one because of the shallow neck profile...at least shallow to me by their measurements. I own two CEO-7s. I no longer own a rosewood guitar but I have had several that were fantastic over the years. My ear changed and started gravitating towards the more direct, woody tone of mahogany. The Martins are the best deal in town for a Mahogany/Adi 00 size with the GE bracing if you like the neck. I have never understood why anyone would not like that neck, but that is just me. I actually wish it were a bit thicker in 1st position, but that is the same with my Collings CJ35 and that is being very picky. With all the hate on Martin lately (binding and such)...and I am right with them, these guitars are just a great deal.

By the way, I have one with the original Hog and I bought a new one in 2022. Looks like Hog but it is whatever sippo according to this forum. They both sound great. Here is a sample from both. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9besoqFbbI&t=48s

[Corndog]

Originally Posted by leew3

I have a CEO-7 and 000-28 12 fret. Both have adi tops, the 12 fret is rosewood b/s, the CEO-7 of course is mahogany. Either will be wonderful for fingerstyle. The 000 is full scale so a bit more of a stretch at times, and is the louder of the two by quite a bit. I feel like I'm cheating playing fingerstyle on the 12 fret as it's so responsive but the CEO-7 is equally lush, complex and a short scale so somewhat easier to play. I doubt that I've helped much as I love both of these guitars, but these are my thought FWIW.

The 000-28 12 fret is long scale? Wouldn't that then be an OM?

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by Corndog

The 000-28 12 fret is long scale? Wouldn't that then be an OM?

The 12-fret 000 was introduced in 1902, and had a standard-scale neck. The 12-fret 000-28 was the guitar that Martin modified to create the OM in 1929. When Martin discontinued the OM and reverted back to the 000 designation (with 14 frets clear), they shortened the scale to 24.9 (there were a handful of standard-scale 000s during the transition).

[kharma44]

Hey, thanks everyone for all these inputs, it's very appreciated.

I got the chance to very swiftly drive by a music store that had the 0012-28 MD and a Boucher HG 000 in maple.

The 13/16 nut was just perfect on the Martin so as the 2 1/4 spacing that somehow felt a bit wider than on my 000-15sm. The sound was a tad boxy, or rather a bit compact sounding, but still very lush with these typical creamy low mids, it felt warmer than my OM-21 (but I didn't have it with me to compare). The mids felt less recessed than on the OM-21. It is a small but very beautiful and light guitar. It's loud and full of sustain, but with very good note separation. I did not strum it, but I'm not sure it would sound as good as the OM-21 for strumming. But I prefer it to my OM for fingerstyle, much comfier.

A 00-18 standard that I played right after sounded much smaller and much quieter.

I then tried the Boucher HG 000 in maple. The strings spacing felt much wider 2,375 (2 3/8). A bit wide, kind of like a classical, so it was a bit harder to play fast. It sounded very good and loud, but a bit stiff - the scale is 25.5. I definitely prefered the 0012-28. But the Boucher was in maple...

I did try some other OM Boucher's in the past and I remember liking them.

So.... might have to sell the OM-21 and get the 0012-28 MD. But it's quite expansive at 6 349 $ CAD... Food for thoughts. Or get the CEO-7 for almost 2K less! Perhaps try the Boucher Parlor. But that can't really replace the OM-21.

Or maybe a Waterloo 14x!

[darylcrisp]

I have owned a MusicEmporium"in house custom" that they attempt to keep in stock, for around a year. Its a 00-12. Amazing instrument in every way. Very light, very responsive, very resonant. I tend to not like 12 fret guitars, having owned many different sizes and brands, but this one is simply amazing.

Its supremely comfortable sitting or lounging, and has a more than ample voice/projection if needed to play on stage.

Shortscale, MLO neck profile(does not have the performance taper), i need to call TME and alert them that some of the specs they have listed under this model is evidently for another guitar.
Case in point, the string spacing at the saddle on mine is 2 5/16". Plays excellent fingerstyle or with flatpick.

Is very balanced on the overall string set. Love this guitar in every way. It keeps company with two Santa Cruz, 000-42 Martin, Froggy M 14 Deluxe, couple Gibsons, but it receives more hands on than any of the others(none are slouches).

They keep the cost down a little as it comes with a 325 series hardcase. Mine has a bookmatched bear claw top and although subtle visually, its really neat.

https://themusicemporium.com/product...inker-mahogany

[Silly Moustache]

The Martin 0012-28 is a seemingly, pretty good Grand Concert, 24.9 scale, 1 & 13/16" nut width slotted headstock - i.e, the original design of the 00.
A sensible design, and my favuorite design although mine is by Collings and Eastman.

The CE0-7 as far as I can see is a Martin copy of a Gibson L-00.

Boucher guitars haven't really "broken" here in Europe and try as I might, I can't find any sensible specs on their website or elsewhere, but the pictures suggest that it is a size "0" concert, or a size "1" "standard"" in Martin terms. nut width, string spacing body size - unavailable.

My advice is to not buy anything until you have worked out exactly what body design and neck geometry suits you best.

[TheGITM]

Originally Posted by kharma44

Hey, thanks everyone for all these inputs, it's very appreciated.

I got the chance to very swiftly drive by a music store that had the 0012-28 MD and a Boucher HG 000 in maple.

The 13/16 nut was just perfect on the Martin so as the 2 1/4 spacing that somehow felt a bit wider than on my 000-15sm. The sound was a tad boxy, or rather a bit compact sounding, but still very lush with these typical creamy low mids, it felt warmer than my OM-21 (but I didn't have it with me to compare). The mids felt less recessed than on the OM-21. It is a small but very beautiful and light guitar. It's loud and full of sustain, but with very good note separation. I did not strum it, but I'm not sure it would sound as good as the OM-21 for strumming. But I prefer it to my OM for fingerstyle, much comfier.

A 00-18 standard that I played right after sounded much smaller and much quieter.

I then tried the Boucher HG 000 in maple. The strings spacing felt much wider 2,375 (2 3/8). A bit wide, kind of like a classical, so it was a bit harder to play fast. It sounded very good and loud, but a bit stiff - the scale is 25.5. I definitely prefered the 0012-28. But the Boucher was in maple...

I did try some other OM Boucher's in the past and I remember liking them.

So.... might have to sell the OM-21 and get the 0012-28 MD. But it's quite expansive at 6 349 $ CAD... Food for thoughts. Or get the CEO-7 for almost 2K less! Perhaps try the Boucher Parlor. But that can't really replace the OM-21.

Or maybe a Waterloo 14x!

In a situation like this one, my strategy is to keep playing different guitars until the light bulb goes off... and you just know that 'this is the one'. It doesn't sound to me like you are there yet.

When I first played the 0012-28 I was floored, but I didn't buy it. I played it for over an hour and went home. But I kept thinking about it. It's was priced at $4,599 USD. I did all of the mental gymnastics thinking about the fact that I already have a fleet of acoustics that are really awesome. I didn't 'need' another guitar. It was one of the pricier factory guitars and for a few dollars more I could jump to a true bench-built guitar... etc...

I finally settled on the decision that I absolutely did want to add a nice 12 fret parlor-style guitar since I did not have one and I really enjoyed the feel/sound of it. I considered that I could probably search around and find one cheaper, but then I might not get to play it before purchasing (which can be a pain) and it likely would not be under warranty as I wouldn't be the original owner.

Ultimately, to me, there was value to having played the 0012-28 and loving it, and knowing that it would be under the full lifetime Martin warranty. So, I went back in a couple of days later with the idea that I didn't want to pay more than $4,000 USD. I played it some more, and inspected every inch of it. I even took my endoscope with me so I could look inside the guitar. I was able to negotiate a favorable deal, and walked out with the guitar.

I have no regrets. It is the only guitar I have played since I brought it home, and it's even inspired me to start recording again (after many years away from it).

I hope that you are able to find the right guitar for you... and it's one that when you play, you just know. That can make all the difference!

[kharma44]

Totally true!

The last few purchase I made without playing the actual guitar first. For my J-45 and 00015sm I got lucky and love them a lot. I often try the same models in a store and never found one souding better than mine.

Not the same with my OM-21. I did not really bound with it. Not that it doesn't sound good, but I prefer the other 2.

And I know what specs are important to me pretty clearly now.
nut width no less than 1 3/4 and no more than 1 13/16 and string spacing between 2 1/4 and 2 5/16.

Preferably a combination of nut and neck shape that are different than what Martin have on the standard series... For some reason, the combination of the MLO + their string position at the nut make me often mute the hi E string with my palm on C chords unless I change my thumb position... this is annoying! I think it's partly because their E string is a little too close to the edge of the fretboard. I never run into that problem on my J45.

I just need to convince myself that this means spending 6K on a guitar!

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Corndog

The 000-28 12 fret is long scale? Wouldn't that then be an OM?

Lots of confusion here.
The origianal 12fret Auditorium 000 has a "standard" scale. i.e te 25.4" and i believe that the 000 was the only Martin to have this scale fro 1902 until it was converted/perverted to te failed OM (1929-1933).

When the converted/perverted dreadnought was introduced in 1934 (IIRC) it inherited the "OM" title for a while until Martin realised tat a flat top could not effectively play rhythm in swing bands.

At some point they re-introduced the "000" but as a rhythm style 14 fret and with a shorter (24.9" scale). I have no idea of the logic of this.