Archtop curious

[L50EF15]

Let me make my usual recommendation to the archtop curious to try as many as possible before buying. The Big Dogs (vintage 17” and 18” Gibsons like the Advanced L5 and Super 400; the 18” New York era Epiphone Emperor; the 19” Stromberg Master 300 and Master 400) have more bass presence than the 16” Gibsons and their imitators and competitors.

I have only heard the Epiphones on video and audio recordings, but I have had the chance to play a couple of Super 400s and once (it was at the grand opening of the 14th Street Guitar Center in Manhattan many years ago) played a Master 400. For someone used to the obvious bass bias of a dreadnought, the larger archtops might sound more familiar. But these instruments also command the highest prices, bar something like a 1920s L-5.

That’s not to say that the 16” models are tinny or lacking in bass response. I can say that my Gibson L-50 has very good bass response but (as mentioned upthread about archtops generally) is also very balanced string to string, up and down the neck.

I will end by saying that a good vintage Harmony (and condition is key) is an excellent gateway to archtop land. I had a mint Harmony Monterey (different finish than Andy’s). It sounded very similar to a Martin 000. Of course, a Godin 5th Avenue like Robin has is going to be a better bet because it’s newer and will generally be in better shape.

[RLetson]

16-inch archtops can sound just fine, even against their larger siblings. I have both sizes, and the main difference (to these 79-year-old ears) is volume--and even that is not necessarily a matter of size--bracing and carving are crucially important.

What I listen for in an archtop is more like balance (and a bit of growl), with enough bottom to compensate for the trebly quality that most mediocre examples have. And as I posted above, not every 17-inch classic has that balance. During that NYC tasting session last year, I got to play some very high-end 17-inchers, and none of them grabbed my ears like the two 16-inch Gibsons. On the other hand, I once got to play a '40s Epi Emperor that had "it." You never can tell, until you actually play.

[Murphy Slaw]

Doing a little research, I think the one we had around the house in the very early 70's (that got destroyed in a brawl) was a Harmony Hollywood.

I remember those knobs and the gold colored pickup.

Everybody loved that guitar.

[Don Lampson]

My 1st official music teacher played a huge F hole Eppy... I believe it was the "Emperor" model? The fretboard was festooned in MOP... It was a godawful burst, in an Exorcist barf green color!

I remember one time, I asked Mr. Harris, if I could play my lesson on his guitar... He reluctantly agreed... That box was so big for me as a 10 year old, that he helped me hold the monster, as I banged out "Bicycle Built for Two"... I was stoked all the way home & beyond from that lesson....

It was a moment of clarity, and a self-actualization, that made me start whining to my mom, that I simply had to have a better instrument! I was ashamed, playing that $5 Stella.... Thank goodness, I had an indulgent mother!

Don

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Don Lampson

My 1st official music teacher played a huge F hole Eppy... I believe it was the "Emperor" model? The fretboard was festooned in MOP... It was a godawful burst, in an Exorcist barf green color!...

Similar experience here: in the early-60's I took lessons from the late Jack Wilkins (when he was a teenage phenom just old enough to be my big brother), who used to keep a script-logo Gibson L-5N at the studio. I still remember the day he brought it in for the first time: my nominally half-hour lesson stretched into a solid 90 minutes that day, as he explained all the intricacies that made these babies tick (carving, bracing, tap-tuning, neck angle, etc.) and how to spot a good one with the "fingerstyle test": if a classical-guitar piece sounds good and has adequate projection, all the traditional plectrum-style archtop techniques - comping, single-string lines, chord-solo - as well as the elusive "coaxing the velvet out" tone-you-can-eat-with-a-spoon will fall into line as well. Had a chance to play it on a couple occasions - it was a 17" body (as opposed to the 18-1/2" Emperor) and I was a fairly big kid, so compared to my 16" Harmony it wasn't too much of a hassle to play sitting down - and suffice it to say that it helped me eliminate a lot of high-dollar vintage duds when I went shopping for my own '46 Epiphone Blackstone and '47 script-logo early A-Series L-7...

As to that Emperor, one of those has been on my must-have for many years - thing is I need a slimmer neck (most Epis - especially the very earliest 1-3/4" f-hole archtops and the postwar instruments - have very thick necks, starting around .90" at the first fret and ranging as high as 1.20" at the tenth), and the 1-9/16" v-necks fitted to some upline Epi comp boxes between '37 and late '39/early '40 are increasingly rare/expensive as collectors pounce on them as soon as they come up for sale. BTW that snot-green burst is characteristic of a genuine faded New York two-tone tobaccoburst finish - analogous to the better-known '50-60 LP cherryburst - and while not all of them fade to this unique color it achieved sufficient notoriety among postwar guitarists that, when Gibson bought out the company and moved production to Kalamazoo, they introduced a finish called Royal Olive (still used on some modern limited/special-edition imports) that simulated the visuals of a New York instrument from 15-20 years prior. Not a big seller here in the US - most players of Gibson-era Epis (and their reissues) gravitate toward the Kalamazoo-style vintage burst/cherry/blonde - but TMK more common in the UK and Euro market, as it was common policy for Gibson/Epiphone (among others) to dump their slow sellers and NOS across the pond (think Keef's sunburst LP from '64 - a full 18-24 months before E.C. would become identified with the model - and Dave Davies' korina V); saw a few upline New York Epis with that finish back in the early/mid-70's, when nobody wanted non-cutaway archtops - especially Epiphones, for some strange reason - and a primo Emperor comp box could be had for $500-550 (a 17" Deluxe for $425-475, and Broadways/Triumphs in the $300-400 range depending on condition)...

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

The projection is an interesting thing too...

much louder out in front than to the player.

And do everything you can to not have the back of the guitar against your body. That back needs to be free to do it's job!

Yes, i think that this was why the Martin "OM" failed as an "Orchestra Model" compared to the archtops.