Uncle Bob's Predictions Coming True?

[Simplyhere]

A reprinted piece of a thread on the UGMF:

CITES Mahogany proposal passed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The proposal to add bigleaf mahogany to the list of species protected under the 160 nation Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species passed at the meeting in Chile. Trade in naturally grown mahogany will be strictly regulated. Plantation-grown mahogany in Indonesia and elsewhere will not be affected. This from the New York Times.

But if the trade in mahogany is anything like the grass-roots marijuana trade I places like Southern Oregon or South West Ohio, well, the moment a major source dries up it only helps the “plantations” that were unharmed. And since business is so good, the first thing the mahogany growers will do is raise their prices – WAY up. Even though they have large stores of pre-CITES mahogany, guitar makers will also increase their prices considerably as well. Someday, in our lifetime, “genuine mahogany” will command the prices Brazilian rosewood does now. But its good for the trees.

The seahorse was also granted similar protection.

[cpmusic]

I saw this, too. As I said somewhere else, Bob T is ahead of the environmental curve, and I think his three-piece neck will soon be viewed as a giant step forward.

[Cisco]

Wow
Not only is Bob the greatest Luthier of his time, a great businessman, employer, friend and Tim's uncle...now he's a Prophet !!!! I'd like to hear from the NT neck naysayers now !!

hehehehehe poetic justice. Taylor should charge you guys double for the neck on your next Taylor !!!!!


Ron

[TaylorKid]

i kind of wish he'd follow olson type necks with mahagony/maple/rosewood/maple/mahogony laminate or something like that, but in a satin finish. Gloss necks drive me crazy.

[TaylorBear]

WOW! I'm glad I got my 514 before the prices go uuuuuuuuuup!

[Jim]

Swietenia macrophylla already was listed under CITES for a number of years. It was Appendix III though, which is the least restrictive of the listings (see below) and only means that any range country (a country where it grows) could declare it Appendix III and control the export from their country. What happened yesterday in Santiago was that all of the countries that are signatories to the CITES convention were meeting and voted to upgrade it to Appendix II. There is not a big difference between Appendix II and III, other than a slight ratcheting up of the controls on its export. Dalbergia nigra (Brazilian rosewood) is listed on Appendix I which is the real heavy duty control. The moving of mahogany from Appendix III to II is just another signal that have been out there since the 1992 meeting of the signatories when it was first put on the agenda. Appendix I listing is coming at some point, but it won't be for a few years yet and hopefully the Appendix II controls will delay the day for when it happens.

Here is a quick summary of what Appendix I, II and III listing means. By the way, permits are issued by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service here in the U.S. and their counterparts in other countries.


The CITES Appendices I, II and III

Appendices I, II and III to the Convention are lists of species afforded different levels or types of protection from over-exploitation.

Appendix I lists species that are the most endangered among CITES-listed animals and plants. These are threatened with extinction and CITES generally prohibits commercial international trade in specimens of these species. However trade may be allowed under exceptional circumstances, e.g. for scientific research. In these cases, trade may be authorized by the granting of both an export permit (or re-export certificate) and an import permit.

Appendix II lists species that are not necessarily now threatened with extinction but that may become so unless trade is closely controlled. It also includes so-called "look-alike species", i.e. species of which the specimens in trade look like those of species listed for conservation reasons. International trade in specimens of Appendix-II species may be authorized by the granting an export permit or re-export certificate; no import permit is necessary. Permits or certificates should only be granted if the relevant authorities are satisfied that certain conditions are met, above all that trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species in the wild.

Appendix III is a list of species included at the request of a Party that already regulates trade in the species and that needs the cooperation of other countries to prevent unsustainable or illegal exploitation. International trade in specimens of species listed in this Appendix is allowed only on presentation of the appropriate permits or certificates.

[TX_Picker]

Very impressive. I now understand the tag under your username.

What's so special about mahogany anyway? It seems pretty bland to me. Just an opinion, and a naive one at that.

Regards.

[meridian]

Originally posted by TX_Picker
What's so special about mahogany anyway? It seems pretty bland to me.

I don't know the answer, but here is a guess! Maybe mahogany isn't bland so much as just reliably regular. (?)

I know that luthiers prefer mahogany for necks for acoustic guitars for some reason and that because of its popularity it is becoming scarce -- and hence protected.

Jus' guessin'

[cotten]

Originally posted by Simplyhere
... The proposal to add bigleaf mahogany to the list of species protected... passed.... The seahorse was also granted similar protection.

Guess we'd better act quickly, before the Seahorse Signature Series gets too expensive.

I forget - is it a seahorse inlay, top, headstock, bridge or nut?

Oh, yeah, gotta love those seahorse nuts. (Guess that could be taken a couple or three ways....)

cotten

[TaylorBear]

Isn't mahogany's inherent stability the reason behind its status as the gold standard in neck-building?

[meridian]

Originally posted by TaylorBear
Isn't mahogany's inherent stability the reason behind its status as the gold standard in neck-building?

That sounds right to me! But it is still getting scarce!

A few years ago Bob Taylor and crew took a look ten years out and came up with NT -- I am totally guessing, but you know what I mean.

And what I mean is Taylor Guitars is a business that is dependent on a steady supply of high grade wood. No wood or less wood = no guitars or really really expensive ones.

Developing NT and implementing it while mahogany supplies were still good is very forward thinking. Since it was implemented nearly 3 years ago, Taylor's consumption of this resource has become 50% more efficient.

It is a huge deal and THAT is what the fingerjoint does for the player!! I finally figgurred it out!

[barkley_01007]

Terrific thread...thanks to all involved. This kind of knowledge-sharing is exactly what makes this forum such a great place....

[worshipvertical]

I would think that it's furniture makers and not guitar makers that make up that large majority of mahagony users.

Guitar makeing is still a very small market in comparison to furniture.

I wonder though. Could Taylor began using IRW like PRS does for necks if mahagony becomes to scarse. Or how about satin finished maple. A laminate neck ala Olson, like Chaz said.

Taylor has made great steps with the NT neck to make the most use out of the mahagony they have. But should the day some that mahagony isn't available, I'm sure there are other resources.

I wonder what a IRW neck 914c would sound like.????

[david_m]

i kind of wish he'd follow olson type necks with mahagony/maple/rosewood/maple/mahogony laminate or something like that, but in a satin finish. Gloss necks drive me crazy.

I agree! I simply would not buy an acoustic guitar with a gloss neck. The gloss finish"catches" my hands and makes playing up and down the neck more difficult. It's the same reason why basketball players wet their shoes before going onto the court. Just a little bit of sweat on your hand and that gloss neck is like velcro!

One way or the other I hope we continue to have mahagony guitar necks. I know a lot of classicals use Spanish cedar or cypress as their neck material. Are these another option?

David

[cpmusic]

I think Martin is using Spanish cedar for some of their necks now, though they're probably not on the standard series.

I agree about gloss necks. Some purists don't like the satin finish, but it's so much faster than the gloss. I think Taylor puts them on the 600s because it looks better, the wood matching the body and all, but if I bought a 600 I'd seriously consider "satinizing" the neck. The 300-LTDs have maple necks with satin finish (which is incredibly smooth and fast, BTW) but they also have satin on the body, so it matches visually.