Italian and Swiss Spruce tops

[MikeInBethesda]

Hi all,

I'm looking at a couple of custom Martin's (D-28s and 000-18s) that have these tops rather than sitka. Would these essentially have the same tonal characteristics as German or European spruce? Would they be more suitable for finger style then, say sitka or adirondack?

Thanks, Mike

Italian and Swiss might just be called European spruce elsewhere. Martin makes the distinction due to the source and place of harvest. Tonally, I can't tell any difference between the two on the Martin guitars I've played with those tops.

IME, and strictly in terms of modern Martin guitars, I find those two top woods more like red spruce than Sitka. They have a quick response with bright trebles and warm bass. Some consider it a smoother sound than red spruce Martins. That comment is more about tone than volume. They are usually loud, sometimes louder than red spruce. These guitars can be very powerful.

I don't find them either more or less suited to one style of play or the other. That's more about bracing and setup, in my opinion at least.

[00-28]

What Todd said. Not much to add to that except make sure it's "Alpine" or "High Altitude". Not all Italian and Swiss top woods are the same.

....Mike

[Alan Carruth]

Italian and Swiss (and German and Czech) spruce is all the same species. There can lot of variation in the properties of any species of wood. Some of it has to do with things like climate and soil, altitude and rainfall get into the equation, and even where the wood is cut from the tree. I have two pieces of European (Austrian, I was told, about 300-400 years old) spruce the same size that came from the same length of the same board, just three inches apart, and one is twice as stiff along the grain as the other. It's possible that Swiss spruce tends to be a bit different on average than spruce cut just across the border in Italy, and to the extent that holds true the distinction could be a useful shorthand. However, the tops on those guitars may not be much like the average, and given the range of variation I've seen in measuring tops I'd say it's more a marketing ploy. Just my opinion...

[Wade Hampton]

The main difference is that the guitar with the Italian spruce top will be fond of pasta and red wine, while the one with the Swiss top will be motivated mostly by chocolate...

No, seriously, all they are, frankly, is guitars with European spruce tops. They will sound like guitars with nice tops on them. Trying to assign specific tonal characteristics to them by their countries of origin is an exercise in wishful thinking.

Al described the very different characteristics of two Austrian spruce tops that were literally cut from the same board. If there's that much variation in a couple of tops cut from the same tree, why should any other random pair of tops from the same country of origin be consistent in terms of their tonal qualities?

Short answer: they won't be consistent, no matter what all the marketing and online Internet heroes will try to make you believe. You still have to judge each top and each guitar they're put on by their own musical merits.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Brucebubs]

Is there a little European Spruce superiority/snobbery stemming from the fact Stradivarius violins were made from genuine Italian Alpine Spruce and not Swiss or Austrian or German or French?

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

Is there a little European Spruce superiority/snobbery stemming from the fact Stradivarius violins were made from genuine Italian Alpine Spruce and not Swiss or Austrian or German or French?

You are thinking of French Spruce.

[Brucebubs]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

You are thinking of French Spruce.

Antonio Stradivari, the master violin maker whose instruments sell for millions of dollars today, has been dead for nearly three centuries. Only 650 of his instruments are estimated to survive.

But the forest where the luthier got his lumber is alive and well. And thanks to the surprising teamwork of modern instrument makers and forest rangers, Stradivari's trees are doing better than ever.

These spruce trees have been growing for hundreds of years in the Fiemme Valley, the same corner of the Italian Alps where Renaissance luthiers such as Stradivari, Guarneri and Amati hand-picked the trees that would be turned into some of the world's finest instruments. Thanks to a serendipitous combination of climate and altitude, these have come to be called "Il Bosco Che Suona" — The Musical Woods.

[bho]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

Antonio Stradivari, the master violin maker whose instruments sell for millions of dollars today, has been dead for nearly three centuries. Only 650 of his instruments are estimated to survive.

But the forest where the luthier got his lumber is alive and well. And thanks to the surprising teamwork of modern instrument makers and forest rangers, Stradivari's trees are doing better than ever.

These spruce trees have been growing for hundreds of years in the Fiemme Valley, the same corner of the Italian Alps where Renaissance luthiers such as Stradivari, Guarneri and Amati hand-picked the trees that would be turned into some of the world's finest instruments. Thanks to a serendipitous combination of climate and altitude, these have come to be called "Il Bosco Che Suona" — The Musical Woods.

This is one of the most interesting historical facts I've read on the AGF. Thanks for sharing!

[westman]

Originally Posted by bho

This is one of the most interesting historical facts I've read on the AGF. Thanks for sharing!

The sources for traditional European tonewood are worth looking up, very informative
e.g. here -

http://www.ciresafiemme.it/tonewood-...rl-italy.html#

web site -
http://www.ciresafiemme.it/en/tonewo...ino-italy.html

http://www.ciresafiemme.it/tonewood-...rl-italy.html#


prices - scroll down

http://www.ciresafiemme.it/images/li...no_inglese.pdf

[mcbean]

Originally Posted by MikeInBethesda

Would they be more suitable for finger style then, say sitka or adirondack?

Thanks, Mike

Others have already commented on whatever differences may exist in terms of the source of the wood, so I'll comment on this based on my limited experience. My Avalon A2-20 has an Alpine spruce top and I would say it is the clearest guitar I've ever played...unbelievable note separation/clarity/balance from top to bottom.

Is that just because of the top? I'm sure it isn't. But it has to contribute to it.

[gfspencer]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

Italian and Swiss might just be called European spruce elsewhere. Martin makes the distinction due to the source and place of harvest. Tonally, I can't tell any difference between the two on the Martin guitars I've played with those tops.

IME, and strictly in terms of modern Martin guitars, I find those two top woods more like red spruce than Sitka. They have a quick response with bright trebles and warm bass. Some consider it a smoother sound than red spruce Martins. That comment is more about tone than volume. They are usually loud, sometimes louder than red spruce. These guitars can be very powerful.

I don't find them either more or less suited to one style of play or the other. That's more about bracing and setup, in my opinion at least.

+1 to what Todd says. I have had two Martins with Italian Alpine tops. One was a custom D-21 and the other was a 00-21 Kingston Trio. I would describe the response exactly as he did.

[Alan Carruth]

A small addition to correct a mis-perception: those two pieces of old Austrian spruce are not 'tops'; they are narrow pieces about a foot long by 1" x 1/2", quartered on the wide side. The plank, which I was told came from an old barn, was cut from the center of the tree, and the two pieces were cut on opposite sides of the center. This is an extreme example, but some level of variation within a tree is common.

[00-28]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

A small addition to correct a mis-perception: those two pieces of old Austrian spruce are not 'tops'; they are narrow pieces about a foot long by 1" x 1/2", quartered on the wide side. The plank, which I was told came from an old barn, was cut from the center of the tree, and the two pieces were cut on opposite sides of the center. This is an extreme example, but some level of variation within a tree is common.

Almost big enough for a 4 piece top on Martin Backpacker.

.......Mike

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by mcbean

I would say it is the clearest guitar I've ever played...unbelievable note separation/clarity/balance from top to bottom.

Is that just because of the top? I'm sure it isn't. But it has to contribute to it.

My Furch has an alpine spruce top and I feel it parallels mcbean's
comments. 90% of my playing is with my fingers and it excels at it. It responds exceptionally well to a light touch but can handle a heavy hand without any issues