Different Spruces -

[Pizzanetor]

Honestly, the topic "quality top woods" is pretty new to me: I've always played Custom Shop guitars of various brands buying what made my heart beat, without too much questions about, so I've never paid much attention to the types of Spruce of the top.

I want to understand better, from someone more experienced than me, how they differ from each other: Sitka Spruce, Engelmann Spruce, Lutz Spruce, Adirondack Spruce.

Do these woods have really "perceptible" differences between each of them? What are these differences? Which do you prefer?

[The Bard Rocks]

First, the difference between the species is not as great as the difference between the individual pieces and the makers. Meaning, lots of overlap, so to speak in generalities is fine but does not necessarily bring you to your guitar wants.

There is lots to read on the internet about this. Adirondack (red) has the greatest headroom, breaks in slow. Sitka is sort of the standard to which all other guitars are compared. Does much well. Englemann is apt to be quieter and better adapted to sensitive playing. The European spruces are basically fairly similar to Sitka. I've never played Lutz but would have no hesitation to use it in a build if that's what the luthier recommended, meaning his Lutz (substitute species if you like) might not be the same as someone else's.

[sinistral]

singlechange posted this video in a recent thread, and I thought it was very instructive to “hear” the different woods:

Originally Posted by singlechange

You might want to view this video made by luthier John Greven, former repairman at Gruhn Guitars shop, showing and talking about how he picks Adi, spruce, sitka, etc. tops...

My favorite quote in the video is when Greven samples the old-growth sitka spruce that he got from the old Gibson factory in Kalamazoo:

”Listen to this! They don’t make trees like this anymore … You just don’t hear… spruce that sounds like this anymore. I mean, its just amazing material. I use this specifically when I do reproductions of vintage Gibson guitars because it gets to that… that kinda ballsy, intense, bright but but powerful sound that the old… old Gibsons had. It’s not sophisticated… it’s not like a Martin sound… it’s… it’s raunchy, but in a good sorta way.”

[godfreydaniel]

I don’t think of European spruces as similar to Sitka.

[OddManOut]

First, the difference between the species is not as great as the difference between the individual pieces and the makers. Meaning, lots of overlap, so to speak in generalities is fine but does not necessarily bring you to your guitar wants.

Agreed 100%. Think about the differences in good examples of sitka-topped dread size guitars from say Gibson, Martin and Taylor. Apples, oranges and bananas. The generalized description of the tonal differences between spruces would be most apt when comparing the same builder/model with those tops. Even then, not every individual guitar of the same builder/model with a given type spruce top will be the same. Natural materials vary. Mother Earth has her ways...

[koolimy]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

First, the difference between the species is not as great as the difference between the individual pieces and the makers. Meaning, lots of overlap, so to speak in generalities is fine but does not necessarily bring you to your guitar wants.

There is lots to read on the internet about this. Adirondack (red) has the greatest headroom, breaks in slow. Sitka is sort of the standard to which all other guitars are compared. Does much well. Englemann is apt to be quieter and better adapted to sensitive playing. The European spruces are basically fairly similar to Sitka. I've never played Lutz but would have no hesitation to use it in a build if that's what the luthier recommended, meaning his Lutz (substitute species if you like) might not be the same as someone else's.

I think this is the answer. I am not an expert, but from what I've read on this forum and others, spruce is basically spruce. The differences between the spruces basically is the difference between the densities of each piece. The species of spruce matters in that the average density is different among species, but in the end it is about the individual piece of spruce. On average I think the difference in density goes something like Englemann -> European -> Lutz -> Sitka -> Adirondack. Cedar would be lighter than Englemann, and Redwood is heavier than Cedar, but also has a wide range. However, I've heard that you can have a piece of Englemann Spruce that is as heavy as an average Adirondack Spruce piece, while you can also have an Adirondack spruce top that is as light as an average European or Engelmann spruce top.

It seems that if you are buying a factory guitar, these distinctions likely make sense, because they are building to the averages. Thus Engelmann will be lighter, have less headroom, and more overtones, while Adirondack will need to be played harder and will have a longer break in period. If you are buying from a luthier, these distinctions maybe are not that meaningful. They can probably just find a piece of spruce that fits your playing style and build accordingly. The piece of spruce will likely have all the qualities you need for your playing style but it probably can be any species of Spruce, be it Sitka, Adirondack, European, etc.

[jseth]

I've played absolutely stunning guitars (sound-wise) with nearly every sort of top wood, and I have to heartily agree that it's the builder that contributes the most to the sound of any particular top wood selection...

Once you get away from the "Big Three", the luthier is the one to focus upon...

[Sage Runner]

Real well done Concise Video on Spruce tops! That old Kalamazoo spruce is amazing. Yes sir— old seasoned wood is typically the material of choice. No wonder the whole -Torrified/process was quickly capitalized on. I’m blessed to have a small stash of old seasoned top wood. Sitka that came from the Guild factory Circa 1960s. And few 25 year old seasoned master grade Red/Adirondack and Engleman tops. Like others pointed out!—the quality of the materials/tone woods is only a small part of it!— A luthiers Touch is the most important factor. When you match up superb Woods with the magic touch-the Instrument will soar with the best of em.

[Br1ck]

You already know what many never understand. Why would you want to know more about details when you have always followed your heart? You may think you can not be swayed by what 90% of people think is true, but you'd be wrong. The fact is, there are great overlaps in the sound of different woods and the builders influence clouds the issue even more. The more you know the more you don't, so I vote the heart going pitty pat as the most viable way to guitar satisfaction.

If your heart hasn't gone pitty pat, you haven't played enough guitars.

[TBman]

Right before I bought my Avalon (sitka spruce) I was playing a Taylor 714 with a lutz top fairly often at my local GC. I really liked it. I wasn't really looking for the "Taylor sound" though at the time.

[colins]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

First, the difference between the species is not as great as the difference between the individual pieces and the makers. Meaning, lots of overlap, so to speak in generalities is fine but does not necessarily bring you to your guitar wants.

Well said.

Perfect example was a guitar I commissioned a few years ago. I already had several guitars with Italian spruce tops made by other builders, and thought this spruce was what I needed for the new build. The builder said she had a set of Engelmann that would be better for what I wanted. I trusted the builder and she was 100% correct. For that same guitar I was lucky enough to hear her do tap tests on several sets of rosewood being considered for the back and sides. All the same species, but the tap tones varied considerably, even to my ears.

Moral of the story? Find a builder whose guitars you like then talk with them about your playing. They know their wood stash and the nuances of individual sets of wood they have and they can choose the right wood for your needs.

[Dave JH]

One of my favourite spruces is Alpine spruce (Picea Abies). It’s very similar to adi but with a bit less glassiness to the tone and beautiful overtones. I think it’s a myth that it sounds like Sitka. Not at all IMO.

[Wade Hampton]

My experience has been that there is much less audible difference between different species of spruce than all the discussion on this and other forums would have you believe.


whm

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Pizzanetor

…Do these woods have really "perceptible" differences between each of them? What are these differences? Which do you prefer?

Hi P-a-netor

My best-guess is if 4 builders each build guitars with wood from the same logs (front & back woods), you may end up with 'perceptible' differences between each of them.

It's not the wood alone which makes the perceptible differences.

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by Dave JH

One of my favourite spruces is Alpine spruce (Picea Abies). It’s very similar to adi but with a bit less glassiness to the tone and beautiful overtones. I think it’s a myth that it sounds like Sitka. Not at all IMO.

Agreed, though I think it has significantly fewer overtones than Sitka. Every one I have played has a very strong fundimental. I ended up selling the one guitar I had with a European spruce top because I could never bond with it's clean fundamental tone.