How long does it take to cedar to open up?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Nickster

Compared to other tone woods, would you say half as long, two thirds as long, or something else?

[size=2]Hi Nickster…
It boils down to several factors…type of Cedar, manufacturing factors versus hand built, and the wood used. There's no way to answer your question with a simple response (I'm sure the general scuttle-butt is Cedar is ALWAYS warmer and opens up quicker).

I've owned several Cedar topped guitars…personally my 1992 Olson Dreadnought (EIR/Cedar), 1999 Taylor 714ce, about 2010 Seagull S6 (Mahogany/Cedar).

The Olson was already a much different tone than my Martin D-28 that was 17 years old when the Olson came to live at our house. The Martin had matured well for the first 15 years I owned it (EIR/Spruce).

The Olson already sounded more 'open' when it arrived (which isn't surprising), and it continued to develop it's tone for at least two decades, and the development of tone has improved over the last 12 years.

It was better at day one than any guitar I'd ever owned, and continues that role after 32 years living at our house. Players who play it are surprised by it, and can't put their finger on what it is…they just 'know' it's amazing in the hands.

The Taylor 714ce I bought in 1999 is owned by my gigging partner, and it continued to noticeably develop its tone for at least 15 years. In fact the reason he bought it (2005) was it was sounding a lot like the Olson and I wanted something in my 'herd' that was different than the Olson so I put it up for sale.

I have played 3 Olson SJ guitars by owners in the area (one is over 40 years old now…originally owned by Phil Keaggy). It's an amazing instrument, very similar in tone to my Olson. In fact all the Olson guitars I've played are very similar to each other…except for a Blonde Mahogany/Spruce top one which was deliberately over-built for a player who breaks 4th and 5th strings because he strums so hard!

All we owners of the Olson Cedar models agreed that they 'arrived' sounding open straight from the bench, and immediately proceeded to get better. I have 6 friends who own EIR/Cedar (one Brazilian/Cedar).

The Seagull S6 never displayed any amazing qualities…but the Cedar that S6s are built with is not Western Red Cedar. Seagull never have officially (that I've seen) told us what kind of Cedar it is. But it's not the rich, warm wood that Western Red Cedar exhibits.

Nor has any S6 I've ever played..well maybe one (later). I taught fingerstyle for 40 years and I've played a ton of the main models Seagull sell (including a Peppino D'agostino). The only one that I ever heard/played that was amazing was a Seagull Mini-Jumbo with a Cedar top.

It was a 2nd hand find by the player and was his 'road' acoustic. It had the top-o-the-line internal preamp/pickup and sounded amazing both through the PA and in the lap. It was unique.

I played a mid-2015ish model of a Bedell OM with Cedar that was amazing…and cheap! The owner paid under $400.

I'm intrigued by woods, & I've played a ton of solo built Cedar topped guitars at festivals, guitar shows, other owner's guitars, student's guitars etc…and there is definitely a coorelation between solo built (or small shop) lighter built (not light weight, but thinner builds), and manufactured guitars. Old Cedar tops (10 yrs old or more) are generally far more pleasing to the ear and hands than freshly manufactured ones.

Hope this makes sense. I'm not an authority, I've just have had more opportunities to play more guitars than most players.

I'll finish by saying with manufactured guitars it's always better to play-before-pay. When I bought my Taylor 714ce, I had 5 to choose from and picked the one that sounded and played best (and had a friend sitting across from me while we auditioned the 5 guitars for over an hour).

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by kizz

Why imply that it is about type of Cedar in one post and then claim that it is about hearing in another?

I think he's implying there are too many variables that would have to be controlled in order to prove "opening up" is an actual thing. And I agree with him.

[Bob Womack]

In February of 2000, my lovely wife gave me a 1999 Taylor K14c cedar/koa that began its build on the last day of production of that year. It began as more responsive than a spruce-topped guitar. Through its first year it changed character from month to month but began to stabilize near the first year of construction as a more responsive instrument. It had a quiet wolf note on the F# of the sixth string. That responsiveness grew over the next decade and the wolf note disappeared. It is now a wonderful, responsive, intimate instrument for fingerstyle. Whenever I take it out to guitar meets, people comment on its sound.

Bob

[Bowie]

There's two things that happen. The wood itself can "open up", as the resins continue to harden and structures change. A separate "opening up" takes place as the woods adapt to their new shape; being glued together as a guitar. Until that happens, the tension in the top can be heard as "stiff".

In the classical world, cedar is often described as needing no time to open up. I don't believe that's consistently true, having recorded my cedar guitar over the years and noticing changes. But, it's definitely less of a change than in spruce topped guitars and MUCH less than koa.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

I think you will find it more "opened up" right from the beginning and you should not expect as dramatic changes over time as you might hear from spruce.

Originally Posted by Jwills57

Cedar tends to have a more blooming, warm, and enveloping sound right off the get go, to my ears. A lot different than the more articulate and punchy spruces...

I've had an Avalon cedar/EIR mini-jumbo for about 20 years...

It had that classic "Irish guitar" fingerstyle tone from day one, and that really hasn't changed much if at all...

It's also by far the loudest flattop guitar in my stash when played with a pick: forward, punchy, articulate on single-note passages, and painfully loud (literally - it'll actually leave you with ringing ears when strummed in close quarters ); this one'll crank out rebel songs at the rowdiest seisiun with no need for amplification - and the only purely acoustic guitars I've ever played that compare are two or three exceptional New York-era non-cut Epiphone Emperors, and a nice old Stromberg Master 400 that I should have grabbed when Eddie Bell had it for $900 in 1976...

IME it's as much a function of the maker and the player, as it is of the materials used...

[RADJJD]

Originally Posted by jmagill

I acquired my first cedar-topped guitar only recently, so I have no first-hand experience of how cedar might change over time, however, I've owned enough vintage instruments to become convinced that time and playing improve their sound. It only makes sense.

Vintage instruments just don't sound like new ones. Does anyone really believe that Itzhak Perlman's Stradivari violin doesn't sound any better than it did when it first came off the bench in 1714?

I have no empirical proof that guitars 'open up' and until someone invents a way take a guitar back in time to compare it to itself when new, I don't think there will ever be a way to prove it, one way or another.

I think the guitar I've played for 15 years sounds better, but what I can say with certainty is that my satisfaction with its sound has absolutely improved. Perhaps that's all anyone can say conclusively about whether or not guitars 'open up'.
.

1932 Custom Built Cedar / Mahogany Archtop

Tonal changes as a guitar ages?

My experiences as follows:

I have owned & played my archtop acoustic guitar for 52 years, inherited from my Dad who played it for 20 years, it is now 92 yrs. old & all of the tone woods, carved Western Red Cedar soundboard, Honduran mahogany back, sides, & arm, ebony fretboard & floating bridge are all as HARD AS A STONE, so humidification is a real challenge.

Built in a custom shop in Chicago in 1932, it has moved with me several times to vastly different climates & storage conditions: extremely hot, cold & dry prairies (less than 30% humidity) to now extremely humid (Pacific coast), plus altitude changes from sea level to 5000 ft. (Rocky Mountains), & different household heating & cooling systems. Yes, it has sounded different in different locals.

It has been stripped (original nitro) & now ultra blonde shellac (French polish) & restored (2011) with new bracing. Designed for steel strings, I have used a variety from D'Addario Phosphor bronze lights, Martin's, & now several nylons (Pro Arte EJ45's, Folk EJ32's, & La Bella 830's),

Yes, the tone has changed over time, most likely from all the changes; so have my hearing & my hands; if I had owned an AI tone analyzer over all these years, I might have some actual objective evidence. Otherwise, it is only one picker's opinion.

I've played lots of Spruce Flat tops (mostly Dreads), Martins, Gibsons, Larrivees, Taylors, & I still can't find any that I would rave about other than using them for a backup if needed. If my 1932 breaks, I fix it.

I was a professional carpenter in the past, & used lots of cedar for decks & fences, most of it coming from a mill in Canoe, British Columbia. Grade was Clear, Tight Knot, & the grain varied dramatically between Years & locations. The term "Red" cedar can go all over the map. The soundboard on mine is the finest I've seen.

Not bad for 92 YEARS OLD!

Image at:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C4wP3BIvugw/

I'm a player, not a collector

[leew3]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

I think you will find it more "opened up" right from the beginning and you should not expect as dramatic changes over time as you might hear from spruce.

This has been my experience too with the one cedar topped guitar I own (custom Larrivee L-03)

[kizz]

Originally Posted by TheGITM

I was not serious about the types of cedar.

I can't believe I have to explain that.

It just seemed that you did put some time into your answer, so you must have meant something by it and why answer that way if not?

[Tony Burns]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

I think you will find it more "opened up" right from the beginning and you should not expect as dramatic changes over time as you might hear from spruce.

I agree - basically its more open to begin with - but also quickly -
But dont compare the two - their not the same sound - i love my Ceder top on my Lucida - but im not a big fan of it on steel string - Im either a sitka or a red spruce person

[conecaster]

Originally Posted by Nickster

Compared to other tone woods, would you say half as long, two thirds as long, or something else?

I have made 100s of cedar top guitars.

The whole attraction to cedar came from the classical guitar world's desire to not have to wait for a spruce top to open up.

I would estimate most cedar top guitars are sounding fully responsive in a month.

[RADJJD]

Originally Posted by kizz

It just seemed that you did put some time into your answer, so you must have meant something by it and why answer that way if not?

Down near the alphabetical list under "W" is? Western Red Cedar: a cypress tree from the Pacific Northwest of North America.

I'll guess that most, or all, of us that own acoustics with Cedar soundboards have no idea where the original piece of lumber was cut & milled. I know where the top of my guitar was hogged out & the guitar built, but the location of the tree? nah!

It sure looks like Western Red Cedar to my trained eye, but I live in the Pacific Northwest & these trees, & the lumber mill from them, all have a distinctive aroma, except mine is 92 years old & now smells like a STONE!

Atlantic white cedar, Chamaecyparis thyoides
Bermuda cedar, Juniperus bermudiana, a species of juniper endemic to Bermuda
Chilean cedar, Austrocedrus chilensis
Chinese cedarwood oil comes from Cupressus funebris, the Chinese weeping cypress
Clanwilliam cedar, Widdringtonia cedarbergensis, a species of cypress endemic to the Cederberg mountains of South Africa
Eastern red cedar, Juniperus virginiana, a species of juniper native to eastern North America
Eastern white cedar, also northern white cedar, Thuja occidentalis, native to eastern North America.
Calocedrus, the incense cedars, a genus native to western North America, Eastern Asia
Japanese cedar, Cryptomeria japonica; known as 杉 (Sugi) in Japanese
Juniperus cedrus, Spanish: cedro de Canarias, cedro
Mexican white cedar, Cupressus lusitanica, a species of cypress native to Mexico and Central America
Mountain cedar, source of Texas cedarwood oil and abundant allergenic pollen, Juniperus ashei, an evergreen shrub native to northeastern Mexico and the south central United States
New Zealand cedar, Libocedrus bidwillii
Persian cedar, Cupressus sempervirens
Port Orford-cedar, Chamaecyparis lawsoniana, or Lawson cypress, California, Oregon
Prickly cedar, sharp cedar, Juniperus oxycedrus, native to the Mediterranean region
Western red cedar, Thuja plicata, a cypress of the Pacific northwest
Yellow cedar, Cupressus nootkatensis, also called Alaska cedar

[Dr356]

My Furch has a cedar top and it has a warm sound that has not changed over the last couple of years.

[RADJJD]

Originally Posted by Tony Burns

I agree - basically its more open to begin with - but also quickly -
But dont compare the two - their not the same sound - i love my Ceder top on my Lucida - but im not a big fan of it on steel string - Im either a sitka or a red spruce person

Ahhh, SPRUCE!

Plentiful & Cheap; both great reasons to mass manufacture houses, garages, sheds, and, oh yes, acoustic GUITAR soundboards...

Wiki says:

Spruce is an evergreen conifer (genus Picea) of the pine family (Pinaceae). About 40 species occur worldwide, in circumpolar distribution in the Northern Hemisphere; 5 are native to Canada.

The whole freaking forest... but wait, when stuff was made to last, the world used:

Oak (until it was harvested to extinction)... the Mighty Oak (white or red) revered in the UK & EU, also.

Douglas Fir, another conifer, used in most houses & buildings until? North America found a cheaper alternative; Spruce

Maple (Rock or Birdseye) less common, & hard to work, but nice to look at.

Mahogany Cuban (now extinct), Honduran (no longer legal), & the stuff from Africa (not Mahogany); my favorite for guitar body parts (sides, back, neck) My guitar, also.

Rosewood (Brazilian & Honduran) really hard (much harder than Oak or Maple) & beautiful for guitar body parts.

BTW, Cedar's most enduring quality, besides it's looks, is? Endurance! yes, Cedar has a natural resistance to rot & insects, so was always the go to for closets, fencing, decking, & guitar soundboards that will look beautiful for a long, long time.

Yes, we don't just play guitars, do we? No, we love to look at them. I know I do.

I am a player, not a collector.

[PeterD18DK]

Originally Posted by Nickster

Compared to other tone woods, would you say half as long, two thirds as long, or something else?

Approx. 3 months, like a loudspeaker, then if you introduce changes it may change in sound too.

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

I think you will find it more "opened up" right from the beginning and you should not expect as dramatic changes over time as you might hear from spruce.

Originally Posted by jaymarsch

I have had my cedar topped guitar for 20 years and it’s never changed in tone at all. It is as brilliant and lush as the day I acquired it. I can say the same for my all mahogany guitar.
My two custom built guitars have spruce tops and went through some “settling in” over the first year of playing them.
Best,
Jayne

These folks are right on. I have 5 western red cedar topped instruments that are 25 years, 15 years, 10 years and 5 years old. I've not noted any change in tone in any of these over the years. Nor have I noted the often- cited "lack of headroom."

Full disclosure - none of my spruce or redwood topped instruments have changed either.