Adjusting to an new/unfamiliar neck shape?

[s2y]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

You're right, I could try to change my technique, but that's a very long, slow process. Also that road is a dubious one. I think my technique is just fine as I've never had any hand pain or injury in 20 years of playing a lot of guitar. Changing that technique could cause more issues than it solves.

How do you know? People don't use a classical/ergonomic technique because it's more difficult. The problem is that most guitarists and bassists do not focus on this until pain, injury, or not being able to play certain neck profiles.

[ii Cybershot ii]

Originally Posted by s2y

How do you know? People don't use a classical/ergonomic technique because it's more difficult. The problem is that most guitarists and bassists do not focus on this until pain, injury, or not being able to play certain neck profiles.

I don't know, just like you don't know that changing technique would fix it the pain. In fact you have no idea what my technique is. What I do know that the most painful positions on this neck for me are ones where I play the chords in a classical position. I feel as though it's because of how thin the neck is personally.

[jpd]

Yup...."V" necks are not my friend

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

My question is, has anyone else had trouble adjusting to a new neck shape? Did you ever experience hand pain from a neck that went away over time?

I've sold more than one guitar because of the neck. I've sold some due to shoulder pain too. I had this Taylor 915m that was incredible that I wanted to have with me always, but it was about to separate my shoulder, so it had to go. I sold a Les Paul once that I really, really liked because I always got this pain between my thumb and index finger when I played it. Now I play an LP with a thicker neck.

It happens, I don't know if you can change your form to cure it or not. It's worth a try, but if nothing works, well, at least you know others have had to let gear go over issues like this. The best sounding guitar in the world isn't a dream guitar if you have to suffer when playing it.

I couldn't really handle Strats until the new ones came out last year. Those new necks don't hurt my left hand now.

[Tone Gopher]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

I don't know, just like you don't know that changing technique would fix it the pain. In fact you have no idea what my technique is. What I do know that the most painful positions on this neck for me are ones where I play the chords in a classical position. I feel as though it's because of how thin the neck is personally.

I'm going through a similar thing - only NONE of my guitars can be played pain-free anymore. I played a '41 Martin 00-18 that belongs to a friend, and that is the only neck profile I've played without pain in the last couple years. I bought a UMFG 00-18VS, but no dice. I already sold my Franklin (that hurt), and have started selling off the last remaining guitars after almost 50 years of playing.

Count yourself lucky if you still have one that works. G'luck!

[Earl49]

My sympathies. 27 years ago I ordered a custom shop Martin J-40, intended to be my lifetime guitar, and saved up for it for a year. Things were fine for a long time, but roughly ten years ago, I noticed that my fretting hand began to hurt after playing for a little while. I could play that wonderful guitar for about 20 minutes and my hand would ache for the rest of the day. But I can play any of my Taylor or Rainsong guitars (or others) for 2-3 hours at a sitting without any left hand pain. It took a while to accept the hard reality but I finally sold that guitar last summer. It had also aged into a tone monster, so imagine my disappointment. But a guitar that I cannot play is of little sue to me.

I used to attribute this problem to the 1-11/16" nut width, but it is maybe not that simple. I have come to believe that the whole package -- neck carve, fret board radius, rolled edges, scale length, nut width -- all factor in. I have learned the hard way what works (Taylor) and what doesn't (for me: Martin MLO necks with 1-11/16" nuts). Unfortunately, I cannot offer you very much encouragement, especially since your problem seems so sudden and acute. If it hurts, you probably won't ever adjust fully. I gave my favorite Martin ten years to come around without any real luck. Sorry.

[s2y]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

I don't know, just like you don't know that changing technique would fix it the pain. In fact you have no idea what my technique is. What I do know that the most painful positions on this neck for me are ones where I play the chords in a classical position. I feel as though it's because of how thin the neck is personally.

If classical position hurts, you should see a hand specialist.

[tippy5]

Originally Posted by Earl49

I used to attribute this problem to the 1-11/16" nut width, but it is maybe not that simple. I have come to believe that the whole package -- neck carve, fret board radius, rolled edges, scale length, nut width -- all factor in. I have learned the hard way what works (Taylor) and what doesn't (for me: Martin MLO necks with 1-11/16" nuts).

Sometimes you need to spend some time with different neck geometries and scale lengths to find the ones that make you play as spontaneous, fast, smooth and accurate as possible. This might cost you some anguish but with a little personal research you can find the best neck and scale length before you have enter the buy then sell imperative. It took me some years (decades) to find out what works the best for me. This forum is a great resource of experience for you to narrow down your needs.

You can try a lot of guitars to get a coarse feel for this in a shop but sometimes the tone, cosmetics or price will over run this ease of play screening. It might take a couple weeks to injure your hand with a V neck or a really flat radius like Collings and Bourgeois that might cause finger strain. The genre you play might dictate the fluidity of your music. Fingerstyle is better with wider strings and shallower neck carves. Strumming is a mixed bag of sizes and shapes. I play different genres. On many I like a round radius(12") and 1.725" nut width with a 2 3/16" saddle spacing. For fingers only music, out of necessity for accuracy over plectrum speed, I like wider string spacing. If you just want a shallow neck that is good for general playing the Martin oval and Taylor necks are very comfortable, except for some with large hands. If you live near an acoustic store ask for someone who will help size up your hands and make a list of which guitars feel the best. See if you like round fret board radius or a flatter one. Hopefully the string height will be fine and you can just get sized for the neck: How your thumb, palm and fingers hit the underside neck and the top fretboard.

[baimo]

Originally Posted by dhodgeh

I had the exact same experience with a Collings D2H that I truly loved. Everything about that guitar was spot on, except that I could not play it for more that 20 minutes without my fretting hand getting numb.

I had no problems what so ever with my Martin D-18 or any of my Taylors.

The thing is, it took me a couple of months before I realized that the Collings was the problem. Which implies that I could not adapt to the guitar. I do believe it was the modified V neck that was causing me the problem.


So, begrudgingly, I made the decision to get rid of it. But things do work out, and I now have this killer D-28 that I never would have looked at had I not experienced the problem with the Collings.

My take away is that if you cannot play the thing, what good for. There are always other guitars out there that will wow you. You just have to find them.

fwiw

D

The Collings guitars are really great sounding well built guitars but the neck keeps ne from buy one. I just cant find a collings with a neck that doesn't bother me. I went through the same thing with Martin's modified V neck. Marting has moving more and more towards their mod low profile which I love. However most of the Authentic models have necks that are too big for me so I find myself leaning towards models that use mod low or custom ordering a guitar. I was lucky enough to buy a Martin outlaw which is similar to an authentic but with a modern neck (that is why it is named the outlaw). It goes against Martins self imposed rules regarding Authentics

[roylor4]

Originally Posted by s2y

If classical position hurts, you should see a hand specialist.

The OP has said that as soon as he switches guitars, the pain stops. Why should he see a doctor when the problem is the neck on this particular guitar? This isn't complicated. You may be able to play a variety of shapes and widths of necks but not everybody is you. Haven't you read any of the other posts from other AGF'ers that ONLY had problems with one guitar and the problem went away when the guitar did? Why does this call for going to a doctor?

If it hurts when I hit my thumb with a hammer I could either stop doing that, or go to a thumb specialist. Why seek a doctor out when common sense is the fastest cure?? I don't get this train of thinking?

[Arthur Blake]

I was born in the early fifties, if that makes a difference, so approaching my 7th decade, and wanted to put in a word about the V neck on my OM-18 Authentic. That neck is thicker and incorporates a fixed ebony truss rod.

After a little over a year and a half, I seem to have adjusted pretty well. I play ragtime blues, folk and classical. I do barre chords all up and down the neck, and even play notes at the 17th fret.

I do some exercises for strength and flexibility in hands and arms and there was a period of a couple of days when some kind of pain prevented me from playing, but I've found that V shape has lots of advantages once you adjust to it, and now regularly play and practice for 2 or 3 hours a day and sometimes more.

I think the thinner necks can be harder on the muscles in my hand, less support. I grip the neck sometimes and also play more classical position with the thumb fully behind the neck. I also use a Sound Seat, elevate the neck, and place the guitar on the left leg.

The hand carved neck is one of the features of the Authentic, and it seemed to me they put a lot of thought into the design, so it was a matter of learning to use it properly.

[ii Cybershot ii]

Originally Posted by Frozen Rat

I've sold more than one guitar because of the neck. I've sold some due to shoulder pain too. I had this Taylor 915m that was incredible that I wanted to have with me always, but it was about to separate my shoulder, so it had to go. I sold a Les Paul once that I really, really liked because I always got this pain between my thumb and index finger when I played it. Now I play an LP with a thicker neck.

It happens, I don't know if you can change your form to cure it or not. It's worth a try, but if nothing works, well, at least you know others have had to let gear go over issues like this. The best sounding guitar in the world isn't a dream guitar if you have to suffer when playing it.

I couldn't really handle Strats until the new ones came out last year. Those new necks don't hurt my left hand now.

Originally Posted by Tone Gopher

I'm going through a similar thing - only NONE of my guitars can be played pain-free anymore. I played a '41 Martin 00-18 that belongs to a friend, and that is the only neck profile I've played without pain in the last couple years. I bought a UMFG 00-18VS, but no dice. I already sold my Franklin (that hurt), and have started selling off the last remaining guitars after almost 50 years of playing.

Count yourself lucky if you still have one that works. G'luck!

Originally Posted by Earl49

My sympathies. 27 years ago I ordered a custom shop Martin J-40, intended to be my lifetime guitar, and saved up for it for a year. Things were fine for a long time, but roughly ten years ago, I noticed that my fretting hand began to hurt after playing for a little while. I could play that wonderful guitar for about 20 minutes and my hand would ache for the rest of the day. But I can play any of my Taylor or Rainsong guitars (or others) for 2-3 hours at a sitting without any left hand pain. It took a while to accept the hard reality but I finally sold that guitar last summer. It had also aged into a tone monster, so imagine my disappointment. But a guitar that I cannot play is of little sue to me.

I used to attribute this problem to the 1-11/16" nut width, but it is maybe not that simple. I have come to believe that the whole package -- neck carve, fret board radius, rolled edges, scale length, nut width -- all factor in. I have learned the hard way what works (Taylor) and what doesn't (for me: Martin MLO necks with 1-11/16" nuts). Unfortunately, I cannot offer you very much encouragement, especially since your problem seems so sudden and acute. If it hurts, you probably won't ever adjust fully. I gave my favorite Martin ten years to come around without any real luck. Sorry.

Sorry to hear of each of your misfortunes. Now after the responses to this thread it seems like we all might have a few neck shapes that our bodies don't like. I should feel lucky it took me almost 20 years to encounter one on an instrument I purchased! Certainly there are plenty of neck shapes we don't like right away in the shop too.

Originally Posted by Arthur Blake

I was born in the early fifties, if that makes a difference, so approaching my 7th decade, and wanted to put in a word about the V neck on my OM-18 Authentic. That neck is thicker and incorporates a fixed ebony truss rod.

After a little over a year and a half, I seem to have adjusted pretty well. I play ragtime blues, folk and classical. I do barre chords all up and down the neck, and even play notes at the 17th fret.

I do some exercises for strength and flexibility in hands and arms and there was a period of a couple of days when some kind of pain prevented me from playing, but I've found that V shape has lots of advantages once you adjust to it, and now regularly play and practice for 2 or 3 hours a day and sometimes more.

I think the thinner necks can be harder on the muscles in my hand, less support. I grip the neck sometimes and also play more classical position with the thumb fully behind the neck. I also use a Sound Seat, elevate the neck, and place the guitar on the left leg.

The hand carved neck is one of the features of the Authentic, and it seemed to me they put a lot of thought into the design, so it was a matter of learning to use it properly.

Aha some positive news! Good to hear you naturally adjusted over time. And I agree with the thin neck observation, seems like that could definitely be a cause in some instances, and I think it is partially to blame in mine.

[s2y]

Originally Posted by roylor4

The OP has said that as soon as he switches guitars, the pain stops. Why should he see a doctor when the problem is the neck on this particular guitar? This isn't complicated. You may be able to play a variety of shapes and widths of necks but not everybody is you. Haven't you read any of the other posts from other AGF'ers that ONLY had problems with one guitar and the problem went away when the guitar did? Why does this call for going to a doctor?

If it hurts when I hit my thumb with a hammer I could either stop doing that, or go to a thumb specialist. Why seek a doctor out when common sense is the fastest cure?? I don't get this train of thinking?

Nobody ever asks why it hurts. Also, it's fun to debate "proper" technique with people who haven't studied it.

99% of guitarist issues with different neck profiles is because they grab the neck like a baseball neck. You can't do this with wider or thinner necks.

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

Aha some positive news! Good to hear you naturally adjusted over time. And I agree with the thin neck observation, seems like that could definitely be a cause in some instances, and I think it is partially to blame in mine.

That bottom line is that the only solution is the one that works. You can do exercises, change from classical position or to classical position and do all kinds of things, but what works for others might not work for you. If I was in your situation, I'd swap out guitars. There maybe only one Trigger, but there's no such thing as only one good sounding guitar, you can find others; your health is much more important, so you should always give that first priority.