Honduran Mahogany vs. Sinker from Belize?

[llew]

Can anyone tell me how the tonal properties differ? Is "Sinker" a viable upcharge like say maybe Madagascar Rosewood vs. EIR? As always...many thanks!

[rmyAddison]

Hey Jim,

I've had both, a number of Honduran mahogany Martins, and one Custom Shop Sinker D-18GE (a beast), but I can't say there are jump out at you differences, so many factors in a guitars build.

FWIW, I do "hear" a general difference with EIR and Madagascar, and have owned a number of both, I have paid the Madagascar up charge a number of times and thought it was worth it, primarily (to my ears) a cleaner and tighter low end.

My Sinker exposure was one guitar briefly, my last dread before arthritis said no more dreads. Personally I would weigh the price difference, is there an EIR version of the same guitar to compare??

Mahogany doesn't muddy like some EIR (versus Brazilian or Madagascar) so it may not be as big as difference with Sinker versus Honduran.

And all that said, it's up to your ears not mine, happy shopping..........

[llew]

Thanks Rich...much appreciated. BTW...I ended up with another OM-18A. This one is a keeper. I continue to see why you're so enamored with your's. My favorite Authentic I've tried. Thanks again...

[MichaelD23]

From Martin's website, a discussion of Sinker Mahogany below. I would assume that the Sinker from Belize is very similar to that from Honduras.

"So-called “sinker mahogany” has its origins in the Central American country of Belize roughly 300 years ago when the British felled massive, 250-300 year-old trees ideal for shipbuilding. The enormous logs were floated downstream to be processed near the port where they would be exported. Along the way, the oldest, most dense logs would settle on the bottom of the floating mass. Some would become trapped by obstructions, while others would take on enough water to ultimately lose their buoyancy and sink to the bottom of the river. Once trapped underwater—often at great depths—the logs became somewhat “preserved” by a relentless barrage of river silt, algae, and lack of oxygen. The wood’s density is a luthier’s dream.

In the intervening three centuries the rivers changed course, in some cases making these long-submerged logs accessible. A cottage industry has sprung up in Belize in which these logs are re-harvested by locals. The work is laborious and dangerous but lucrative. Re-harvested sinker logs command big prices from the luxury yacht and auto builders as well as furniture makers who covet its marvelous properties.

...the sap in the log actually all flows out to the outer portion of the log when it falls into a river, preserving the inside of the log as it ages. The side effect of this is a truly unique-sounding and looking piece of mahogany. These are really strong sounding dreadnoughts without being boomy. The lows are really clear, even when digging into the strings, and the high end is chimey and articulate."

It's a fascinating story, and much like rosewood — wherein guitar builders have to battle furniture and shipbuilders for the best wood — I can only imagine how much fantastic tonewood is lost to those higher volume purchasers. But the sinker that does make it into guitars is a marvelous option, and in most cases, likely worth the upcharge.

[J Patrick]

...if i'm not mistaken....mahogany that grows in Belize is genuine Honduran Mahogany......Belize does almost border Honduras...i know when i was in Belize and Honduras in 1980 there was a lot of it used to build boats...the sinker part is the kicker...

[The Bard Rocks]

The old name for Belize? British Honduras. They use the stuff there for 2x4's among other things. It is also the home of "the Tree" and most Ziracote.

Jim, I can't say for sure exactly how this sinker mahogany is different, but I think there is something to it. I've played a few sinker guitars, and all were very good. They seem to have a bit more crispness or clarity to the tone. They just seem a little more snappy or punchy. I have a CS-D18-12 that is among the best modern Marins I've played. I've also played some of the sinker guitars that George Gruhn has ordered. They are structurally D-18 GE's made with sinker mahogany, even including the neck and tail blocks. They are very strong sounding guitars, and as above, they are bright and punchy without being harsh. If you get a chance to check out one of those, I'd love to hear what you think.

[llew]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

Jim, I can't say for sure exactly how this sinker mahogany is different, but I think there is something to it. I've played a few sinker guitars, and all were very good. They seem to have a bit more crispness or clarity to the tone. They just seem a little more snappy or punchy. I have a CS-D18-12 that is among the best modern Marins I've played. I've also played some of the sinker guitars that George Gruhn has ordered. They are structurally D-18 GE's made with sinker mahogany, even including the neck and tail blocks. They are very strong sounding guitars, and as above, they are bright and punchy without being harsh. If you get a chance to check out one of those, I'd love to hear what you think.

Next time I'm in Nashville I will! That CS-D18-12 is a great guitar and one I wish I could have found but built in small numbers it makes it difficult at best? But I am curious about this CS-0000-18S 12 fret. An unusual design considering all the 14 fret 0000's he has at Gruhn. Here is the Sinker version:

I can't imagine that guitar being anything but wonderful.

[llew]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

I can't imagine that guitar being anything but wonderful.

Yeah...I'm right there with ya!

[Kerbie]

Jim, I agree wholeheartedly with Todd. I think sinker Mahogany is like any other wood... some builders can produce outstanding guitars with it and some can't. No doubt it's denser wood and it can visually be stunning.

I think if you like Mahogany, you'll probably be very happy. I haven't played a Martin sinker, but I know H&D has done wonderful things with the wood. I look forward to hearing what you decide. Good luck!

[Truckjohn]

Remember that "Honduras Mahogany" now refers to the species - not the origin..... S. macrophyllia grows all over the carribean and central America... Including South Florida..... There are even "tree farms" of the stuff cropping up in various places to supply the demand...

Now... 300 years ago, it likely referred to the place of origin.... "Cuban mahogany" was harvested by the Spaniards in Cuba where "Honduras mahogany" was harvested by the British in Honduras... I can't say for certain whether the sawyers separated S. macrophyllia from S. mahoganii when they cut it.. Both species grew in both places.... Probably they did not separate it....

Kinda like there is "white oak" lumber comprising of about 25 species of oaks whose wood tends to be whiter/greener and generally has closed pores.... I have even occasionally received light colored Red oak as "white oak lumber" and brownish white oak as "red oak lumber".... And there is Quercus alba - actual white oak....

And so it goes with the lumber trade...

[MichaelD23]

Post often, Truckjohn. It's good to hear from somebody who knows a lot about wood. I'm interested, even fascinated, but am the first to admit I don't know a lot about wood. Wouldn't mind learning, though...

[Truckjohn]

Sorry about the rambly wood diatribe...

Anyway - I think its hard to generalize about "sinker" mahogany. Some of it sank because it got stuck, lost, or was washed under in a storm... Some sank because it was more dense.

The stuff that is more dense is going to have some of the "rosewood" character without the metallic zing.. Kinda like white oak or like the hard, dense Sapele... The stuff that is less dense is going to sound like garden variety mahogany... Seems like either way is a win.... And it offers a fun surprise - you dont know what you got till you get it....