Do armrests and sound-ports ADD brightness or DECREASE it??

[Carbonius]

Hi there, LONG time since I last posted.

I have read all the data about sound-ports increasing volume... but which frequencies are actually being increased?? That's the critical component for me. If it increases warmth, then yay!! But if it increases trebles then nay!!

What about armrests?? I have read that they increase the warmth but I would LOVE to hear from people who have installed them on an existing guitar. What did it change??



Background:
I have an extreme hearing condition that greatly amplifies high-end frequencies. It's called hyperacusis and varies a lot by person. For me, it has boosted my high range to a CRAZY degree. I also have bad tinnitus and some hearing loss in the upper mids. I can't listen to any recorded music without a lot of eq-ing, HEAVILY reducing the trebles and killing all presence. I quit playing all music for 5 years after it started. A dark period.

I ventured into the classical realm which was nice, Nylon strings help a huge amount. However... I miss strumming, all the picking techniques and more so, all the music I wrote over my lifetime!

I have tried MANY steel string guitars and the brand, woods and shape doesn't really matter. They are ALL too bright. I have A/B'd my current guitar with many and it's not something that woods effect much. Martin, Larrivee, Avalon, Takamine, Seagull, many Taylors... doesn't matter.

People will ask so I will share that I own a Taylor 416 Ltd. Sitka Spruce over Tasmanian Blackwood. The overall tone is okay. ANY position shifting sounds are killer, but I can fix a lot of that with different strings. HOWEVER, it's the unwound strings... there is some weird overtones I hear, especially from the B string on every guitar. Drives me crazy!! I figure if I can boost other frequencies, that annoying tone will get more buried.

I did also go back to electric guitar for a bit... but it's just not the same. I sold that gear and put it into bass gear. I now own 2 Dingwall Combustion basses (a 5 and 6 string) and I play in bands again. The modern era of IEM systems and personal eq-ing is a game changer! I can kill what hurts me and play bass again. But I'm now wondering about acoustic...

Anyhow, I look forward to hearing about those armrests and sound-port frequency effects. Thank you.

[fitness1]

The way to make a sound port increase brightness is normally to make it way too big like many of them are. I've installed a couple dozen and always kept them small (less than an inch in diameter) with only great results. My experience is that normally a well executed port or ports will yield slightly fatter trebles - especially in nylon stringed instruments.

Armrests would probably slightly increase volume all across the spectrum, but I wouldn't expect it to change your perception of "brightness"

Just my opinion, of course.

After reading your post - I'd tell you to try nylon picks that are medium or slightly thicker. Also picks can wear and get "burs" on them that can make the unwound strings sound unpleasant.

[RJVB]

First: what makes you think you can't strum nylon strings? They can be very percussive and cutting, in fact, as any flamenco recording should demonstrate (but also Steve Cooney's demo of his Dowina hybrid if you want an example with pick). Edit: on nylon strings, try an ebony pick (e.g. by a UK company called WoodTones).

I can't say much about armrests other than that the one I have by Armadillo doesn't do anything to the guitar sound
Soundports are a bit of a different proposition. Shifting the soundhole north in a traditional guitar design or opening the body up north of the standard soundhole position will raise the main air resonance. With my Cabaret the tone I get from tapping the bridge with all strings muted is about a semitone higher with the soundport open than with the plug that I made in. I'm not really certain how this affects the timbre of the guitar but I think that you simply wouldn't want a soundport with your condition. The reason I plug mine (during practise) is that the instrument is too loud with it open.

You don't ask for suggestions but I'll make a few anyway:
- Galli make nylon tape-wound strings and include a set of trebles that also have tape winding. They're not cheap but I suppose you could at least try a set to see if this design offers a solution.
- Try using heavier gauge trebles, which will give you less overtones.
- It strikes me that you should be helped by a guitar that projects better (= sounds less loud to the player). One of the options there might seem counterintuitive given how many people perceive their sound: an f-hole archtop. Let me explain. When I got interested in them I started noticing that many of them have less nasal/jingly but mellower trebles that sometimes have that same round, singing quality you can get from an electric. I find this esp. noticeable in parallel-braced instruments with f-holes. Those also have a bit less sustain and a more articulate sound that is less affected by the echoes of the past few notes still sloshing around inside the box. I have a hunch that could be a source of the weird overtones you mention.

[Wade Hampton]

I have John Pearse armrests on all of my flattop guitars. What the armrest does is lift the player’s forearm off of the top, which usually increases the overall tone and volume of the instrument, and increases the perceived bass response. I’ve been using Pearse armrests for some 35 years now, but have never noticed any perceived increase in the treble response when using one.

It’s important to understand the difference between an aftermarket armrest like the John Pearse applied to the top after the guitar is built, and a built-in arm bevel like the ones that Taylor and other builders are incorporating into some of their models these days. If you keep your forearm at the correct angle that the bevel is designed for, it will also increase tone and increase the perceived bass response.

So far as I’m aware arm bevels won’t increase treble response, but my experience with them is insignificant compared to the thousands of hours I’ve logged in with the armrests. Hopefully some folks with more extensive experience with them can chime in on this thread and expand upon the subject.


Wade Hampton Miller

[gmel555]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

….. What the armrest does is lift the player’s forearm off of the top, which usually increases the overall tone and volume of the instrument, and increases the perceived bass response….
Wade Hampton Miller

This is my experience as well, so brightness is not enhanced IMO when using armrests.

[Mandobart]

IMO the hearing issues you describe likely means that we don't hear the same things. My observations on arm rests and sound ports probably won't align with yours.

I've been using chinrests on my fiddles and armrests on all my mandolin family instruments (8, mounted with viola chinrest hardware) and John Pearse stick-on armrests on 4 of my guitars.

I only have sound ports on one instrument, an F5 mandolin.

The whole idea of sound ports as I understand, is to help the player hear their instrument, like a monitor. TBH I don't hear any difference between my sound port mandolin and all the others.

The whole idea of arm rests as I understand, is to prevent the picking arm from damping the soundboard to improve tone and volume. I believe the combination of the armrest and Tone-gard on several instruments has resulted in higher volume and longer sustain. One other function of an arm rest is comfort. I recently added a clamp on arm rest to my T1K tenor ukulele due to discomfort from the small kind of sharp edge.

But ultimately aesthetics are always part of the picture. I've decided for now no arm rest on the HD-28 or 000-15SM.

[sinistral]

When you say “arm rests,” it’s not clear whether you are referring to aftermarket arm rest such as the ones Wade discusses, or arm bevels built into the guitar. I’m not familiar with aftermarket arm rests, but it makes sense that reducing anything that dampens the vibration of the guitar (arm resting, leaning against body, etc.) will increase volume and alter the tone somewhat. Once a guitar has a bevel built in, it’s hard to say what it would’ve sounded like without it, but in my experience guitars with bevels can sound mellow or bright, so I doubt that bevels have a material effect on brightness—a guitar’s brightness is more a function of how it is built overall (and strings, etc.).

Based on comments by Alan Carruth in threads about soundports, my understanding is that soundports that the player can see into will act as monitor, and the higher frequencies produced by the guitar will be more clearly audible. In your case, that it not a good thing, so I would avoid guitars with soundports that you can see into.

Some other things to try/consider—if you play with a pick, the pick material and thickness can have a significant effect on the brightness or mellowness of the tone. As a general rule, thicker picks will produce a mellower tone, as will rounded edges/points. Dunlop 207 and 208 picks are good examples. Playing closer to or over the fretboard extension will also cut down on high frequency overtones and trebles. Monel strings are typically mellower than phosphor bronze or 80/20s. Some guitars will produce harmonic resonance on the afterlength of strings from the nut to the tuning posts. Players who are sensitive to that will tie a piece of cloth on the headstock under the strings to dampen them (Kenneth Pattengale of the Milk Carton Kids does this).

Good luck finding solutions that work for you.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Carbonius

Hi there, LONG time since I last posted.

I have read all the data about sound-ports increasing volume... but which frequencies are actually being increased?? That's the critical component for me. If it increases warmth, then yay!! But if it increases trebles then nay!!

Hi Carbonious…
I have two guitars with side ports conventionally placed to the neck side of center on both (pics below). In both cases they enhance the highs.

I've played many guitars with side ports and none of them were 'invisible' nor weighted to the low frequency side of the spectrum.

The most natural was a Nightingale by Kevin Ryan (I've played 2 - owned by different friends) and because of the location of the multiple holes, mostly below the waist, it was the least 'obvious' or directionally centric.

I would think if the in-ear adjustable monitor has been the reason for your success, you may need to transfer that concept to an acoustic as well. After all, my acoustics all have internal pickups (K&K Pure-mini systems in 5 of them), and your electric basses all have pickups.

What would it take to adapt in-ear monitors to an acoustic with a pickup?

[Alan Carruth]

Most people tend to lose high frequency acuity with age. Since most guitars tend to project their high tones forward toward the audience they can be hard for a player with that sort of hearing loss to hear, particularly if the room is large, dead, or noisy (a 'restaurant gig'). A port that the player can see into as they play will capture some high frequency sound from inside the body and project it toward the player, acting as a 'monitor' in that situation.

Ports up by the base of the neck, or down at the lower end, do tend to enhance the low range sound of the guitar, although they shift the resonant pitches of the 'air' and 'top' modes in the bass reflex couple upward. Even a fairly small port can make a difference; I remember hearing a change in tone when we pulled the strap jack out of a guitar once many years ago. That was before 'ports' became a thing, and before I did the experiments to figure them out. In my experience the result tends to sound more 'open' or 'forward' than the same guitar without the port, rather then 'richer' or 'darker'. Of course, everybody tends to use such terms differently, so you might not agree with my characterization.

I don't have much experience with add-on arm rests, so I can't speak to that.

[LFL Steve]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

. . . I only have sound ports on one instrument, an F5 mandolin . . . TBH I don't hear any difference between my sound port mandolin and all the others.

An F5 with sound port? Cool.
What is it?

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by RJVB

First: what makes you think you can't strum nylon strings?

Hi there, thanks for those suggestions. I have experimented with plectrums & Medium gauge trebles. I did find heavier plectrums helped. I have been wondering about taped trebles, hard to find. I'll dig some more.

I have tried strumming my classical but it just not the same. It is good and certainly has it's place, it's quite a different tone though. I write different when I play classical, brings out different things.

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

I have John Pearse armrests on all of my flattop guitars. What the armrest does is lift the player’s forearm off of the top, which usually increases the overall tone and volume of the instrument, and increases the perceived bass response. I’ve been using Pearse armrests for some 35 years now, but have never noticed any perceived increase in the treble response when using one.

It’s important to understand the difference between an aftermarket armrest like the John Pearse applied to the top after the guitar is built, and a built-in arm bevel like the ones that Taylor and other builders are incorporating into some of their models these days. If you keep your forearm at the correct angle that the bevel is designed for, it will also increase tone and increase the perceived bass response.

So far as I’m aware arm bevels won’t increase treble response, but my experience with them is insignificant compared to the thousands of hours I’ve logged in with the armrests. Hopefully some folks with more extensive experience with them can chime in on this thread and expand upon the subject.


Wade Hampton Miller

Thanks Wade. I did some tests and I found it seemed similar. I would try to strum without my arm touching the guitar anywhere, then rest my arm as usual. I certainly seemed to dampen or choak some of those lower tones.

I was thinking of adding an armrest, as you said. I could use some low adhesion tape as a test so it could be removed if I don't like it.

My classical has an armrest on it that is more like an aftermarket add on. I prefer that as I never have to worry about where my arm is. The built in bevels seem to be more about comfort than tone. Certainly a nice comfort feature, but I get both with the armrest and no worries. Downside is it pushes my arm out more. Not a big deal on mine but it could be on a Dread.

The other thing I totally forgot about is how having the back of the guitar against the body also dampens tone. But there is only so much a guy can do! I know some make double backs to address this.

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

I would think if the in-ear adjustable monitor has been the reason for your success, you may need to transfer that concept to an acoustic as well. After all, my acoustics all have internal pickups (K&K Pure-mini systems in 5 of them), and your electric basses all have pickups.

What would it take to adapt in-ear monitors to an acoustic with a pickup?

Now that is an interesting thought! I do already have a custom K&K installed. It's a 5 head rather than the traditional 3 head, the extra 2 heads helped to fill in some frequencies that were lacking.

Anyhow. I would have to get a good DI or a practice amp but that could work!! I have actually played sometimes with earplugs in to dampen the highs. However I also loose some mids, so that hasn't worked as well. But having control over the overall tone... can't believe I never thought of it!

I also appreciate your feedback about the soundport. Certainly the LAST thing I want is MORE treble. Thank you.

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by sinistral

When you say “arm rests,” it’s not clear whether you are referring to aftermarket arm rest such as the ones Wade discusses, or arm bevels built into the guitar.

In your case, that it not a good thing, so I would avoid guitars with soundports that you can see into.

Monel strings are typically mellower than phosphor bronze or 80/20s.

Some guitars will produce harmonic resonance on the afterlength of strings from the nut to the tuning posts.

Good luck finding solutions that work for you.

After market armrest, fitted to what I have. I will give this a shot since it's not an alteration.

Yup, sounds like soundports are a no go. Glad I didn't make that mod!

I need to get those Monels, seem like a good switch.

I have tried different plectrums with some success.

I FULLY wrapped my headstock once, didn't stop it. Even tried putting felt between the saddle and string post. No matter what I do that weird overtone is there. It's plectrum related. If I play lighter fingerstyle, flesh not nails then it's not there. However the other overtone still grate me. I'll give those Monels a shot. Thanks.

[boneuphtoner]

To the OP - Like you, I did not like the overly bright tone I was getting out of the unwound strings of my acoustics. Some guitars did a better job of hiding this than others (hardwood or cedar tops), but even if the open strings were fairly mellow, one or more of the fretted notes was brighter than I wanted. I told George Gruhn this, and he suggested that I try a larger bodied 12-fret instrument, like a 12-fret dread. Problem solved - much warmer tone on the unwound strings now!