So sad, open mics in my small town shut down by ASCAP licensing

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Ditch

How many times do they want to be paid for the same song.

If the song belongs to me, why shouldn't I get paid every time it's used?

How many times do hotels want to be paid for renting the same room?
How many times do real estate agents want to be paid for selling the same house?
How many times do photographers want to be paid for selling prints of the same photograph?
How many times do groomers want to be paid for grooming the same dog?
How many times do babysitters want to be paid for watching the same kids?

[patchmcg]

Lots of high horses on this thread, on both sides of the fence...

[tadol]

Originally Posted by jim1960

If the song belongs to me, why shouldn't I get paid every time it's used?

How many times do hotels want to be paid for renting the same room?
How many times do real estate agents want to be paid for selling the same house?
How many times do photographers want to be paid for selling prints of the same photograph?
How many times do groomers want to be paid for grooming the same dog?
How many times do babysitters want to be paid for watching the same kids?

Which shows you dont understand the differences at all -

By your analogy, the hotel would never change the linens or clean the room -
The re agent would get paid each time you walked in the door -
The photographer would get paid each time someone looked at a photo -
And the groomer and babysitter would get paid for the rest of the animals or kids lives -

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by tadol

Which shows you dont understand the differences at all -

By your analogy, the hotel would never change the linens or clean the room -
The re agent would get paid each time you walked in the door -
The photographer would get paid each time someone looked at a photo -
And the groomer and babysitter would get paid for the rest of the animals or kids lives -

Will the hotel let you stay for free if you bring your own sheets?
Can you move into that house for sale without buying it?
When you see a photographer's print hanging on someone's wall, didn't that person purchase the right to display it?
As for the groomer and the babysitter, you only have to pay them when your animals or kids are in their care, just as you only have to pay for a song when you play it.

[KevWind]

Attention people you are needlessly making this way too convoluted .

The licensing PRO fees are like any other subscription fee .. plain and simple.
no hotels, no mechanics or plumbers , no how many times do they want to get paid.... bla bla bla .

It's a subscription fee period. The venue pays it once for a given time period (usually 1 year in the case of bars , coffee shops, restaurants, etc. ) and the performers can play the songs as many times as they want .

[reeve21]

Lots of opinions here. Not to get you guys off of your arguments, but I have a question, hopefully related.

Ted said something about "transmitting" over the internet. If I put one of my lousy covers on Soundcloud so my kids can hear it do I need a license? What if I post it here in the show and tell forum? There is obviously no monetary profit involved, am I naïve to assume that makes it ok?

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by reeve21

Lots of opinions here. Not to get you guys off of your arguments, but I have a question, hopefully related.

Ted said something about "transmitting" over the internet. If I put one of my lousy covers on Soundcloud so my kids can hear it do I need a license? What if I post it here in the show and tell forum? There is obviously no monetary profit involved, am I naïve to assume that makes it ok?

Soundcloud makes a profit by having people put up songs they've recorded so Soundcloud needs a license.

[jstegeman]

Originally Posted by reeve21

Lots of opinions here. Not to get you guys off of your arguments, but I have a question, hopefully related.

Ted said something about "transmitting" over the internet. If I put one of my lousy covers on Soundcloud so my kids can hear it do I need a license? What if I post it here in the show and tell forum? There is obviously no monetary profit involved, am I naïve to assume that makes it ok?

I once put some practice songs that I and a band were working on YT so that the band members could review the practice. They were non-public (anyone could view them if they had the URL). I pretty quickly got an automated email saying that it violated the copyright and gave me a URL to dispute it. My dispute was rejected.

On the other hand, we felt pretty good about ourselves that our version sounded close enough to the original so that a computer could recognize it as the same song.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by reeve21

Lots of opinions here. Not to get you guys off of your arguments, but I have a question, hopefully related.

Ted said something about "transmitting" over the internet. If I put one of my lousy covers on Soundcloud so my kids can hear it do I need a license? What if I post it here in the show and tell forum? There is obviously no monetary profit involved, am I naïve to assume that makes it ok?

Here's the licensing info from ASCAP:

https://www.ascap.com/help/ascap-licensing

[RedJoker]

Originally Posted by rct

But you go, all you open mic guys setting the world on fire, you go, you all seem to know so much about how it all works after what, 2, 3 times out?


rct

That's not how I read most of the comments here. I hear the open mic folks admitting that their feeble attempts are in no way a threat to the professionals. Though it may have been said, I don't remember seeing anyone say that the songwriters shouldn't be paid. I've seen the current process be questioned, that is all. The open mic'ers just want somewhere to play and this is one of many hurdles from keeping places from having open mics.

I have found this thread informative but what do I know. I've only played open mics 2 or 3 times.

[PistolPete]

Originally Posted by reeve21

Lots of opinions here. Not to get you guys off of your arguments, but I have a question, hopefully related.

Ted said something about "transmitting" over the internet. If I put one of my lousy covers on Soundcloud so my kids can hear it do I need a license? What if I post it here in the show and tell forum? There is obviously no monetary profit involved, am I naïve to assume that makes it ok?

I believe Soundcloud used to put in their T&Cs that it was your responsibility to license any cover you made available. I had an email from my PRO around a year ago to say they now had an agreement with Soundcloud for songwriting royalties, so I assume that particular 'get out' clause didn't stand up in court, especially since it was widely ignored & not policed by Soundcloud.

[pops]

While songwriters should get paid, here is one of my problems.

http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2014...ut-live-music/

This was about local kids getting to perform their original music, getting credit at school to do it and money made donated to local charities. It is a shame that they had to stop.

[ChrisE]

I didn't read all the posts, but I wanted to share a story of a nightclub manager/dj/recording artist whose club was being harassed by BMI/ASCAP (one or the other or both).

The licensing company came to the club demanding payment. The manager/dj/recording artist said to him "Where does the money we pay you go?"

The guys says "It goes to the artist," the guy told him.

The manager/dj/recording artist called #$%^& on him and said, "I'm a member of your organization and I've been playing my own records in here for the past ten years, and I have not received one cent from you."

[Mystery123]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

Fees are usually around $1500/year for a small venue, according to venue owners I know and speak to. That's ASCAP ... then you have to pay BMI and SESAC. Let's say $4500/year. That comes out of the profit, so if we use a generous figure of 30% profit, those open mics would have to generate $15,000/year in gross revenue (above what they'd do if they didn't have music). That's a problem for many small coffee shops, wineries, cafes, and such.

If anyone thinks that the music played at a small town cafe is taking food out of the mouths of the songwriter they are delusional. The songwriter doesn't even get paid unless the performers or venues file a complete setlist with the PRO of every song played every night. That doesn't happen either. And when they do get paid, it's in rolls of pennies.

No wonder they shut down open mics. Going by that example, even if the venue generates $15000 with 30% profit, what's the point of hosting it if all the profit goes to fees and nothing comes in the house?
That's a lot of money as fees and looks like the middle man/agency takes most of it as the license is in bulk fees, not based on what's being played individually.
Most songwriters/musicians are already filthy rich.
Not only that, when they die, their families continue to suck it forever and ever.
Basically, no free music if you are a business.
I guess we need to start a new open mic where everyone listens to the same song from their phones using headphones.

[M19]

Closed due to length, and the belief that not a lot more (different) can be said.