Calling luthiers: rosewood blend recommendation? (tucarensis or Madagascar?)

[SiliconValleySJ]

Well, not just to luthiers, but to those who've played quite a bit of a variety of rosewoods and have some ideas. I've searched the threads, but have a hard time arriving at a conclusion.

Also caveat: I know that rosewoods vary by piece of wood. I do get it, I love my current EIR keeper, it has great tone. But looking for some generalizations and thoughts.

I am primarily a strummer and then flatpicker and then fingerpicker in that order. I like modern tone/sounding guitars, and I gravitate toward anything OM and larger. When I play various rosewood guitars, here is what I'm hearing when I think the guitar is well done (from a player's perspective--I know its different from the listener perspective):

• East Indian - great depth, a very nice warmth, and the highs are often crystalline--still slightly metallic rather than glassy. Lots of very rich overtones across the board.
• Brazilian - good depth, is well balanced, and the mids and highs are glassy. The overtones are rich and lush, and I hear a lot of reverb content in the overtones--particularly on the highs.
• Cocobolo - I've never really enjoyed Cocobolo. It has crazy depth and warmth--it's a dark warmth with a lot of bass emphasis at the lowest frequencies compared to EIR. Very clear, but the overtone is focused on the bass end. I imagine dark chocolate and coffee when I play these. The highs just never seem to match the lows.
• Honduran - only played a couple of these, but I'm finding it's not as deep, but glassy and projects very well. (loud even) Strong overtones and reverb content, particularly highs just go on and on. I can see why people call it BRW on steroids.
• African Blackwood - only played a couple of these, but I feel like it's missing the reverb. More clarity/focus than BRW perhaps, but I can't say I've bonded with it either.
• Palo Escrito - only played a couple of these, but also great projection and loud. It has good reverb quality, decent depth, but doesn't feel as deep because I feel like the resonance is towards the midrange and not as low/warm as EIR. Still not quite my cup of tea.

I'm considering a custom build, but really looking for something that might combine the best elements of EIR and BRW/Honduran. I love the warmth and depth of EIR, but the glassy highs of BRW/Honduran. I like my overtones to be a full range of the tonal pallete. I haven't played much Madagascar, Guatamalan, Ziricote, etc., that I feel comfortable making any generalizations. Wondering if any luthiers can weigh in--and if there is even such a thing that I'm looking for here.

I'm trying to choose the right rosewood to pair either with Englemann or European spruce.

(And the point of this thread is not to spark a war on which rosewood is best, just trying to figure out which might be best to my ears!)

Thanks!

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by asciiwar

I'm trying to choose the right rosewood to pair either with Englemann or European spruce.

(And the point of this thread is not to spark a war on which rosewood is best, just trying to figure out which might be best to my ears!)

Thanks!

Not what you want to hear, but your basic premise is flawed.

The only person who is able to determine what might be best to your ears is you.

Rather than play "groups" of guitars made out of this wood or that - and attempting to create correlations from the very many variables involved - play individual instruments and assess each on its own merits, regardless of wood species. When you find one that speaks to you, approach that maker and pursue having one made for you by that maker.

No matter how many times it is said, or by whom, people just don't want to believe it, that the choice of wood species only, at best, adds "color" to the overall sound, icing on an already developed cake: the species won't "make" the guitar.

[jaymarsch]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Not what you want to hear, but your basic premise is flawed.

The only person who is able to determine what might be best to your ears is you.

Rather than play "groups" of guitars made out of this wood or that - and attempting to create correlations from the very many variables involved - play individual instruments and assess each on its own merits, regardless of wood species. When you find one that speaks to you, approach that maker and pursue having one made for you by that maker.

No matter how many times it is said, or by whom, people just don't want to believe it, that the choice of wood species only, at best, adds "color" to the overall sound, icing on an already developed cake: the species won't "make" the guitar.

Well stated and totally my experience. It is exactly the process I used before commissioning a hand built instrument. The information that I learned from playing many instruments and getting clear on what I wanted, coupled with the skills and knowledge of the builder, gave me a fabulous instrument that works great for my hands, ears and voice.

To the OP: it sounds like you do have a sense of what you are looking for in the tone that you want. I would encourage you to take Charles advice. Let your ears and hands be your guide.

Best,
Jayne

[Monsoon1]

African blackwood and cocobolo are just about the two densest woods there are for a guitar, and you're unimpressed by them.

So maybe you're tastes run to the lighter woods?

[tnez13]

You might want to give Pau Ferro a try. Not a true rosewood but rosewood like. I have it on my guitar. Sweet, bell-like trebles, good mids and nice bass to my ears. If you're going custom, play every guitar a luthier has because the sound will have as much to do with the builder as the materials.

[SiliconValleySJ]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

No matter how many times it is said, or by whom, people just don't want to believe it, that the choice of wood species only, at best, adds "color" to the overall sound, icing on an already developed cake: the species won't "make" the guitar.

Actually, I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. I also acknowledge that the top is much more responsible for the sound--I'm just aiming for that 1% that might be influenced by the wood since I'm pretty picky about what I like/don't like.

In this case, the luthier I'm considering builds the general tone I like (based on fairly set bracing patterns), but doesn't have deep experience with as many different rosewood types outside of EIR and BRW. I'm trying to find the sweet in-between to suggest--if it exists. If it doesn't, then I'll just choose one or the other.

I know some people might suggest that I find another luthier. Unfortunately, the tone being built for is rather unique and it's like asking another luthier to do something outside of their signature tone--easier said than done.

[redir]

You would probably feel most comfortable getting BRW since it's so steeped in tradition and has been used in the combinations of top woods that you like so often and on so many good guitars the you can effectively rule out what materials the backs and sides are made of in your quest for the perfect guitar.

In other words if you get the completed guitar and it doesn't sound good then it 'can't be the backs and sides!'

If the guitar sounds great then it 'must be the back and sides!'

[SiliconValleySJ]

Thanks redir, I'm somewhat torn between the choice myself!

Any luthiers who can weigh in? I know there are some who have built extensively here with Madagascar rosewood and Guatamalan rosewood (tucarensis) that have thought they could fall somewhat in between EIR and BRW/Honduran (stevensonii).

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by asciiwar

Any luthiers who can weigh in?.

Charles Tauber is a very well respected luthier.

Steve

[tomiv9]

I think this will depend entirely on who builds the guitar. Have you decided on that yet? It will have way more impact then which rosewood used. Once you decide that you should have a discussion with the actual luthier, see what woods they actually have available and recommend. Or try some models with different woods if available to make your decision.

[SiliconValleySJ]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

Charles Tauber is a very well respected luthier.

Steve

Thanks and understood!

I'm really not trying to be snarky or cause issues. There are some luthiers who take Charles' position, and there are others who opine often enough on the wood differences based on their experience.

Hoping for some of them who've weighed in on woods like Guatamalan (tucarensis), MRW, and other rosewoods who have said that some fall in between EIR/BRW--and wondering which one might be a best fit if there are luthiers who've built with many of the "in-between" woods.

[SiliconValleySJ]

Originally Posted by tomiv9

I think this will depend entirely on who builds the guitar. Have you decided on that yet? It will have way more impact then which rosewood used. Once you decide that you should have a discussion with the actual luthier, see what woods they actually have available and recommend. Or try some models with different woods if available to make your decision.

Yes, but he has generally built rosewood with EIR and BRW, and much more EIR. I know how he voices with his bracing patterns and those are very consistent--they don't change. He's not tapping and altering braces in the way that some others do.

So I'm just trying to influence the color of the tone a little bit based on what I know of his tone and build.

[dneal]

Originally Posted by asciiwar

So I'm just trying to influence the color of the tone a little bit based on what I know of his tone and build.

That's usually one of the first mistakes buyers make. Don't try to out-think the builder. Communicate what you want, and let him figure out how to get there.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by dneal

That's usually one of the first mistakes buyers make. Don't try to out-think the builder. Communicate what you want, and let him figure out how to get there.

Exactly. Else you assume some of the liability in the event it doesn't work out to be what you had hoped for.

[tpeff]

I have a good set of headphones and have listened to many many videos and sound bits on the internet... have found good examples of the tonewoods... dream guitars has an advanced search... its great.... guitar gallery has many,,, and of course youtube...
Now many people say "well it all depends on the builder" what a cop out, a builder is only as good as the tonewoods they start with... and the selection of tonewood is defining.