Adi bracing vs Sitka bracing -- myth?

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Haasome wrote:



Over the years I've been very fortunate in that I've gotten to know a number of prominent guitar builders, both hand builders and folks running guitar factories. What I've seen with many of them is that they come to believe in some aspect of guitar building that they believe very strongly for a while, and it influences their guitar building during that period.

But when you come back a year later and discuss these same things, their views might have shifted.

I saw this most dramatically with Jean and Matt Larrivée: in the late 1990's and early 2000's I was getting to Vancouver, BC at least once and sometimes twice a year. I would usually swing by and visit their guitar factory when I got to town. The one I saw and spoke with the most was Matt, and he always had some new insight and enthusiasm that he was sparkling with: it was clearly part of the joy of guitar-building for him.

But the next time I'd see him, a year or six months later, he didn't always feel the same way. For me, it was as though we were continuing a conversation we'd only just broken off the day before, but for Matt a lot of it was ancient history, and he no longer thought what he had so fervently believed the last time we'd spoken.

That's because he was dealing with all these issues day in and day out, and his views had shifted given the daily realities of what he was seeing in his work.

I think that might also be the case with folks like Dana Bourgeois and Bob Taylor: they try something out, they like the results they're seeing, and their response is: "YEAH! This is the way to DO it, and this is why!!"

Because at that point they ARE convinced.

But that doesn't mean that other guitar builders will get the same results, or come to the same conclusions. And Mssrs. Bourgeois and Taylor might subsequently modify their views somewhat as the months and years pass, and they start to see somewhat different results.

My point is that this is all a dynamic process, particularly when you're at the helm of a large output guitar factory like Taylor or Larrivée. And part of how those guys keep things fresh for themselves is to continue to look for innovations that will give them an additional edge in the marketplace.

My own views are stated more elegantly than I could say them by Al Carruth:



That's been my experience, as well.


Wade Hampton Miller

Once again Wade has put things into perspective. I have seen this in other fields. Knife makers trade little secrets back and forth. One very great knife maker use to say " Well, anyway...that is what I think is the best way this week...next week I might change my mind"
Regardless, I can not help myself...I still like chasing the rainbow. Beautiful tones are everything... and if someone can give me hope at even more beautiful tones...Well, I will just have to seek that out.

[Monsoon1]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

My own measurements of wood properties show that the Young's modulus along the grain of ALL softwoods varies in the same way with density, with surprisingly little scatter in the data. A piece of Sitka and one of Red spruce with the same density, worked to the same dimensions, will be very likely to have the same stiffness. If that's the only issue, there should be no difference.

High end makers use Red spruce for bracing for the same reason they choose fine-grained tops: they're easier to sell. There really is no difference in the properties, and in a blind test nobody can hear the difference, but since buyers believe there is one, and listen with their eyes, they hear what they expect to hear.

Excellent post.

[Monsoon1]

Originally Posted by zoopeda

I once had a conversation with the head of the Martin custom shop who confidently stated that neither she nor the master luthiers in the shop can hear a difference between sitka and adirondack bracing (assuming bracing design, scalloping, and top woods are all otherwise the same). She then went on to say that most everyone in the shop DOES hear a noticeable difference between guitars built with hot hide glue compared to identical copies made with Titebond. (This is not a glue conversation, but to give you a sense for where on the spectrum bracing species selection falls on the spectrum of variables that may affect tone.) She also pointed out that many of the "grail" Martins from the Golden "Pre-War" Era were built with sitka braces under Adi tops.

In other words, according to the experts at Martin, changing the bracing design, brace scalloping, top wood and quality selection, glues, top treatments (such as horrification), neck joint, and even neck thickness and shape all have a more noticeable influence on tone that differences in species of spruce used for bracing.

I would have never thought of that, about the hide glue vs. white glue, but it makes perfect sense.

a guy could actually learn something every day around this place.

[BrunoBlack]

Originally Posted by Monsoon1

Excellent post. (This refers to ---Originally Posted by Alan Carruth)

Alan's post is very sensible. I also came across a great post that Alan made a couple of years ago that is bit more expansive. Given the properties of Sitka and red spruce are similar, this too seems very sensible.

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

It makes good ad copy? Given the romance about Red ('Adirondack') spruce, that's probably as good a reason as any.

On the average, Red spruce is one of the stiffer ones, along with Sitka. It's also denser. The way things work out mechanically, if you need a certain level of stiffness from a softwood structure, you'll save weight by using the less dense wood, assuming you can take the time to optimize things for the wood you use. Factories, of course, can't do that, but I digress (a little). In any event, unless the difference in density and stiffness of the material is fairly noticeable, the weight saving won't be a large percentage of the total. I'd guess, offhand, that you might save 10%-15% of the weight involved by using the least dense softwood as opposed to the densest.

The thing is that the bracing itself is only a small part of the total weight of the top. Most of it, probably 2/3 or more, is in the top plate itself. To put it in perspective; the bridge can weigh as much as all of the top bracing put together. The heaviest braces are, of course, in the upper bout, where they're needed for strength, and don't interfere much with the sound. Saving a little weight there isn't going to make a lot of difference.

So, let's say that all of the braces together amount to 30% of the total top weight, and that you can save 10% of that by using the lightest stiff wood that you can find. That's a saving of 3% of the total weight of the top. you could get that by sanding it a little more, assuming it's not on the edge of collapse, or using rosewood instead of ebony for the bridge.

There are times when you want some added mass in the top. It seems to help with 'headroom', for example, which is probably why the denser woods, like Sitka and Red spruce have the reputation for having more headroom than low density stuff like Western Red Cedar and Engelmann spruce. Dense stiff bracing might be particularly critical on a top where the brace profile is 'scalloped': low at the bridge location. Those guitars often benefit from a heavy ebony bridge, too, as opposed to a lighter rosewood one.

It's possible that Red spruce has some property that's different in some way from Sitka, which it resembles in many other ways. So far I haven't been able to find anything, and cussed if I'm going to go with some 'leprechaun' theory. If there's a measurable effect, it has to have a measurable cause; we just might not know what to measure yet.

[berg]

It is so personal and related to the specific playing style, song, production ... so there is no clear answer applicable to everyone and everytime. If the song is good and musician is playing well, it actually doesn't matter if it was Adi, Sitka or ... My 2 cents

B.




https://soundcloud.com/bergzea
https://bergzea.bandcamp.com

[Monsoon1]

Originally Posted by zmf

I agree with your sentiment, and wonder where and how the notion of the benefits of red spruce bracing originated.

Is it one more of those "common knowledge" issues that remains unanswered? Suppose one could be cynical and consider it just another example of hype designed to increase the cost or perceived value of a guitar.

Red spruce bracing may make little difference in tone on average, but I'd like to think that -- somewhere in the history of this idea - that it has some basis in attempting to optimize the responsiveness of the guitar.

Must be something beyond the notion that "red spruce is cool". Or am I just grasping at straws?

well as has been posted, the characteristics can vary by a good margin.
so I suspect that somewhere along the way, a couple of builders really nailed it with adi, and those guitars wound up in the hands of some influential people who let the word go out about how great the adi was.
I mean think about it, you only have to go back to the 50's, and anything someone like Johnny Cash or Elvis would have said, could quickly have wound up gospel to a lot of people.

[6L6]

I am not a bluegrass player. And, I can't answer the OP's question because I know so little about it.

What I do know, though, is that an acoustic with a sitka top and braces that is equipped with a K&K pickup definitely sounds better to MY ears when plugged into an acoustic amp than does an Adi-topped guitar with a K&K.

When played acoustically, however, I prefer the extra zing of an Adi top with adi braces.

SO... when I'm plugging in I reach for my Collings D2H. When I'm going to be micing, I grab my Collings D2HA.

[terrapin]

Originally Posted by Ed-in-Ohio

In my opinion the only tonal difference comes from who shapes and attaches the braces (regardless of what species of Spruce they are made from).

This conclusion is based on my belief that when it comes to tone, the importance of the builder is almost always underestimated, while the importance of tonewoods is almost always overestimated.

Amen to this!

[tomiv9]

Well now we have torrefied bracing, just to open another can of worms...

[DanSavage]

Originally Posted by tomiv9

Well now we have torrefied bracing, just to open another can of worms...

Personally, I can't see using non-torrefied braces on a torrefied top, especially since torrefied brace stock is available in both Sitka and Adi spruce.

[tomiv9]

Really? I think torrefied bracing is relatively new concept, and the vast majority of torrefied guitars just have torrefied tops.

[Txmiller]

I was wondering if adi bracing would work against a mahogany top. Is adi bracing used mostly in non-mahogany guitars?

[mickthemiller]

Originally Posted by M19

Hear hear!

Ditto......

[vintageom]

Originally Posted by DanSavage

Personally, I can't see using non-torrefied braces on a torrefied top, especially since torrefied brace stock is available in both Sitka and Adi spruce.

Not for nothing, just saying, if I bought a torrefied topped guitar, I would prefer the top bracing to also be torrefied. Seems to me I would want the pieces of top woods to be of similar dryness and cellular structure. If the top wood is treated and dry and more stable in dimensions over time than non treated top wood, then why risk the top bracing being more GREEN or containing more moisture, sap, open cellular structures and potentially shrinking more than the top? Seems if the science is valid for the torrefaction process for a top, why not the bracing too?

[warfrat73]

Here's what I know about Adirondack bracing.

I ordered my custom shop Martin with an Adirondack top, and assumed that it would have Adirondack braces, because it says on the custom guitar builder that Adirondack tops automatically get Adi braces (or at least it used to).

Then I got my quote/build sheet that listed Adi top and Sitka braces. My shop called and talked to the Martin Custom Shop who assured them that Adi tops always get Adi braces. But, of course the build sheet also has a disclaimer that the guitar will be built exactly as spec'd on the sheet, and that no assumptions would be made in the construction.

Then, after I took delivery, I became a bit curious about that disclaimer, and emailed Martin. They responded that it would have been built per the spec sheet, and if it says Sitka, it's Sitka.

Then I went back in to the shop and chatted with the guys about it, who called the CS again, and were told that if it has an Adi top, it got Adi braces. (And my friend that used to work there, and made the initial call, was adamant that that's what they said in the first place).

So, I know that my CS D-18 either does, or perhaps does not, have Adi braces.

Either way, my guitar can probably beat up your guitar....

Seriously, though, it is a beast.