Adi bracing vs Sitka bracing -- myth?

[Riakstonic]

Being low on the totem pole I had no clue to bracing other it being spruce . Guild was the one that made me a ware of it other wise I've been none the wiser . My only concern as mentioned is over all sound if braced with rock and sounds good and I can pick up I'm good lol

I'm not sure what my Blueridge is braced with ?

[lizzard]

Okay,

I'll probably get banned, but...

It's not the color of the brace, or the size, .... It's how you use it

Chris

[werkout52]

I need a volunteer to go to Wildwood Guitars and compare their Wildwood adi Taylors to the standard ones and get back to us. (I'd do it my self but I end up leaving with a new guitar every time)
From my experience with Wildwood Adi guitars there is a little more response.

[00-28]

The Wildwood CV Series Taylor guitars look really nice, top shelf, but Bob's presentation was all marketing baloney, or Bologna, for you purest. There was one contradiction after the other. I like Bob, but this was just silly, especially the part where 80% of the tops tone comes from the species of spruce used for the braces. . ........Mike

[werkout52]

Originally Posted by 00-28

The Wildwood CV Series Taylor guitars Look really nice but Bob's presentation was all marketing baloney, or Bologna, for you purest. There was one contradiction after the other. I like Bob, but this was just silly. . ........Mike

Of course it's marketing, that's what Bob does to sell guitars. As far as contradictions, give some examples. What he says makes sense to me. As an adi braced owner I see a difference.

The idea that you get "...80% of the tone by using red spruce braces on a Sitka top..." or "...a red spruce top with Sitka braces won't sound as good as a Sitka top with red spruce braces..." is beyond rediculous.

[zoopeda]

I once had a conversation with the head of the Martin custom shop who confidently stated that neither she nor the master luthiers in the shop can hear a difference between sitka and adirondack bracing (assuming bracing design, scalloping, and top woods are all otherwise the same). She then went on to say that most everyone in the shop DOES hear a noticeable difference between guitars built with hot hide glue compared to identical copies made with Titebond. (This is not a glue conversation, but to give you a sense for where on the spectrum bracing species selection falls on the spectrum of variables that may affect tone.) She also pointed out that many of the "grail" Martins from the Golden "Pre-War" Era were built with sitka braces under Adi tops.

In other words, according to the experts at Martin, changing the bracing design, brace scalloping, top wood and quality selection, glues, top treatments (such as horrification), neck joint, and even neck thickness and shape all have a more noticeable influence on tone that differences in species of spruce used for bracing.

[Silly Moustache]

I might also be seen as a heretic, but whilst I have some very fine guitars, made by three or four very well respected makers (you'd know of them all) they are made out of some pretty good if straight forward woods.

Like most others, I can appreciate the looks of a beautiful back and sides from some south American jungle. but I tend not to buy a guitar for the back, or the rarity of the front, nor the sources of the bits and pieces inside....silly me...if it sounds right, and it fits my fists, then I'll do the rest by playing it.

I have a very fine adi topped guitar ... it sounds smashing. I also have a virtually identical model with sitka - same maker, same model. It sounds just as good ... a little different, but both very fine.

My point ? I don't really care whether it is stuck together with white or hot hide glue, whether the top has been cooked or not, or whether the sticks inside are from the south east or the north west of the USA, or the Carpathians or whatever....as long as it sounds (or will sound) like I want.

Of course I accept that we are guitar nerds, and there is good business in offering exotic options.

Ok, "hang me oh hang me, an' I'll be dead and gone".

[BrunoBlack]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

The idea that you get "...80% of the tone by using red spruce braces on a Sitka top..." or "...a red spruce top with Sitka braces won't sound as good as a Sitka top with red spruce braces..." is beyond rediculous.

In the video, pretty fascinating stuff at 4:20, it is (as Yoda would say.) I'm actually pretty surprised he made those claims. And when somebody who is so highly respected and sells so many acoustic guitars goes on record with a comment like that, you can see why consumers are influenced by this notion of Adi-braced superiority.

[OddManOut]

Just as we guitar consumers have opinions (whether well-informed or not), so do luthiers/builders/manufacturers. Each has their opinions, and corresponding methods. Some of it may be simply marketing, some of it yields actual results. But so much of this is specific to THAT builder's way of building. You don't want to use Goodall's methods if you want a Collings sound, etc..

The larger the builder is, the more likely their design and building choices are based on production efficiencies.Often these are marketed to consumers as the next greatest thing. I have to admit the adi brace and hide glue stuff strikes me this way. (There is increased labor in using hide glue, of course.) I have found smaller builders to be more on the level.

The quest for absolutes in the world of luthiery strikes me as mostly futile (IMO). Qualifying statements with 'IMO', 'I believe', 'to my ear' shows certain perspective on the guitar world. e.g. Two excellent local luthiers here (Tahoe Guitars and Wilborn) have methods and beliefs which are night and day different. No right or wrong...just different.

[Wade Hampton]

Haasome wrote:

Originally Posted by Haasome

In the video, pretty fascinating stuff at 4:20, it is (as Yoda would say.) I'm actually pretty surprised he made those claims. And when somebody who is so highly respected and sells so many acoustic guitars goes on record with a comment like that, you can see why consumers are influenced by this notion of Adi-braced superiority.

Over the years I've been very fortunate in that I've gotten to know a number of prominent guitar builders, both hand builders and folks running guitar factories. What I've seen with many of them is that they come to believe in some aspect of guitar building that they believe very strongly for a while, and it influences their guitar building during that period.

But when you come back a year later and discuss these same things, their views might have shifted.

I saw this most dramatically with Jean and Matt Larrivée: in the late 1990's and early 2000's I was getting to Vancouver, BC at least once and sometimes twice a year. I would usually swing by and visit their guitar factory when I got to town. The one I saw and spoke with the most was Matt, and he always had some new insight and enthusiasm that he was sparkling with: it was clearly part of the joy of guitar-building for him.

But the next time I'd see him, a year or six months later, he didn't always feel the same way. For me, it was as though we were continuing a conversation we'd only just broken off the day before, but for Matt a lot of it was ancient history, and he no longer thought what he had so fervently believed the last time we'd spoken.

That's because he was dealing with all these issues day in and day out, and his views had shifted given the daily realities of what he was seeing in his work.

I think that might also be the case with folks like Dana Bourgeois and Bob Taylor: they try something out, they like the results they're seeing, and their response is: "YEAH! This is the way to DO it, and this is why!!"

Because at that point they ARE convinced.

But that doesn't mean that other guitar builders will get the same results, or come to the same conclusions. And Mssrs. Bourgeois and Taylor might subsequently modify their views somewhat as the months and years pass, and they start to see somewhat different results.

My point is that this is all a dynamic process, particularly when you're at the helm of a large output guitar factory like Taylor or Larrivée. And part of how those guys keep things fresh for themselves is to continue to look for innovations that will give them an additional edge in the marketplace.

My own views are stated more elegantly than I could say them by Al Carruth:

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

High end makers use Red spruce for bracing for the same reason they choose fine-grained tops: they're easier to sell. There really is no difference in the properties, and in a blind test nobody can hear the difference, but since buyers believe there is one, and listen with their eyes, they hear what they expect to hear.

That's been my experience, as well.


Wade Hampton Miller

[seannx]

Originally Posted by Haasome

In the video, pretty fascinating stuff at 4:20,

Maybe the time gives some insight...

[BrunoBlack]

Originally Posted by seannx

Maybe the time gives some insight...

Funny! Didn't think of that

[SpruceTop]

Something to consider: Bob Taylor, being with Taylor Guitars since its inception 42 years ago, right up to today, has produced tens-of-thousands of guitars with Sitka Spruce bracing and thousands of similar models with Adirondack Spruce bracing. Given this history, it's reasonable to assume that Bob Taylor has presided over making more guitars than anyone in history. I'd think he would know something about the tonal trends of the materials used in his guitar-making operations. I'm not saying what Bob said in the video is true or not, and with possible hyperbole aside, the man must know something about what contributes to guitar tone and his insight shouldn't be dismissed as merely business-hype. Just my 2 cents.

[OddManOut]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Something to consider: Bob Taylor, being with Taylor Guitars since its inception 42 years ago, right up to today, has produced tens-of-thousands of guitars with Sitka Spruce bracing and thousands of similar models with Adirondack Spruce bracing. Given this history, it's reasonable to assume that Bob Taylor has presided over making more guitars than anyone in history. I'd think he would know something about the tonal trends of the materials used in his guitar-making operations. I'm not saying what Bob said in the video is true or not, and with possible hyperbole aside, the man must know something about what contributes to guitar tone and his insight shouldn't be dismissed as merely business-hype. Just my 2 cents.

I think their annual production now approaches 100,000 per year. So safe to say millions.

His knowledge applies to the (ever-evolving) Taylor way of doing things. I'm sure he has good insight into that. Likely not the same for most other builders. IMO, absolutes don't apply-other than there are no absolutes. .