Adi bracing vs Sitka bracing -- myth?

[Monsoon1]

Originally Posted by Ed-in-Ohio

In my opinion the only tonal difference comes from who shapes and attaches the braces (regardless of what species of Spruce they are made from).

This conclusion is based on my belief that when it comes to tone, the importance of the builder is almost always underestimated, while the importance of tonewoods is almost always overestimated.

I agree. This would especially be true on the less dense/less stiff woods like spruce, where even a little bit of variance in density and hardness, could make a big difference in how the wood needs to be formed to be optimal.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Haasome

Yes, I've heard these comments too, but when I look at the data, I don't see an apparent connection to the claims about differences in strength-stiffness-weight.

SITKA
Average Dried Weight: 27 lbs/ft3 (425 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .36, .42
Janka Hardness: 510 lbf (2,270 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 10,150 lbf/in2 (70.0 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,600,000 lbf/in2 (11.03 GPa)

RED SPRUCE
Average Dried Weight: 27 lbs/ft3 (435 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .37, .43
Janka Hardness: 490 lbf (2,180 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 9,580 lbf/in2 (66.0 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,560,000 lbf/in2 (10.76 GPa)

Now, add to this that these values were established from physically testing thousands of samples for each species. The published values are averages for thousands of tests. This means if you grab a single Sitka brace and a single Adi brace without testing them first, statistically you have an equal chance of getting a stronger/stiffer/lighter Sitka as you do getting a stronger/stiffer/lighter Adi.

So, do builders have another metric or what's missing from the posted data?

It is always nice to have a technical data, such as specific Gravities to help in the understanding of wood species. I believe I may be of some help to you in this area.
I have been working with rare woods from all over the world for 15 hard years of studying and working with(not related to guitars). I have some very high end Specific Gravity Waveform meters, for measuring when the wood is dry and ready for my final processing.
But here is the thing..Much of the data collected by some of the sources...aren't always correct. While the Wood Data Base is an excellent source for numbers...you will find conflicting data on other reliable sites. There are so many sub species that some of the data collected is not recorded properly. And to boot, it is still only a general number. I dry my own wood(depending on the species it takes anywhere from 6 months to 5 years) I have seen vast differences within any given wood species. The differences are more typical among higher densities. One example would be in the species of Amboyna-narra tree( of which there are 17 sub species of this wood) Amboyna from Cambodia can vary anywhere from .68 to .77 specific gravity.
While Spruce typically may have a more consistent due to its lighter weights. ...there still can be variations from tree to tree. And then there is one still many more factors as well with an individual tree. There are actually two sides to a tree and one is more stable than the other.
I love numbers, I love physics and sound reasoning. But sometimes with so many variables...it is nearly impossible to always come up with exacting answers.

[Monsoon1]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

It is always nice to have a technical data, such as specific Gravities to help in the understanding of wood species. I believe I may be of some help to you in this area.
I have been working with rare woods from all over the world for 15 hard years of studying and working with(not related to guitars). I have some very high end Specific Gravity Waveform meters, for measuring when the wood is dry and ready for my final processing.
But here is the thing..Much of the data collected by some of the sources...aren't always correct. While the Wood Data Base is an excellent source for numbers...you will find conflicting data on other reliable sites. There are so many sub species that some of the data collected is not recorded properly. And to boot, it is still only a general number. I dry my own wood(depending on the species it takes anywhere from 6 months to 5 years) I have seen vast differences within any given wood species. The differences are more typical among higher densities. One example would be in the species of Amboyna-narra tree( of which there are 17 sub species of this wood) Amboyna from Cambodia can vary anywhere from .68 to .77 specific gravity.
While Spruce typically may have a more consistent due to its lighter weights. ...there still can be variations from tree to tree. And then there is one still many more factors as well with an individual tree. There are actually two sides to a tree and one is more stable than the other.
I love numbers, I love physics and sound reasoning. But sometimes with so many variables...it is nearly impossible to always come up with exacting answers.

i'm just under 10 years of fooling around with exotics.
and one of the things I wonder about bracing, is whether an exotic could work better.
take massaranduba for example.
it's 6 times harder than spruce, 3.5 times stiffer, and only weighs 2.5 times as much.
so it seems that if you carefully crafted the right shape, you could have lighter pieces that are stiffer than spruce for bracing.

[seannx]

Reading this thread, and thinking about the variables of weight, stiffness, and strength, got me wondering about carbon fiber bracing. A quick Google search led to this...
http://blackbirdguitars.blogspot.com...und-board.html
What about comparing Adi to Sitka to Carbon Fiber bracing?

[catfish]

My Seagull M6 Gloss made in 2004 has a Sitka spruce top and Adi bracing, sounds excellent. I only wanted to mention that not only high end guitars are with Adi bracing.

M6 Gloss is not even all-solid - B&S are laminates.

[Riakstonic]

I was reading up on this a while ago but apparntly from other posts results may vary . It read that Aldi bracing if I'm saying this right ... Dulled the tops tone don't hate me lol I can't remember where this came from but at the time I was researching Guilds and found the models that I played to be rather stale , balanced yes but no real life I like Guilds to .

But again build has much to do with it and I'm always learning so hope I did just insert foot into mouth ... One of my adoring qualities lol

[Gasworker]

We should give Sitka a groovier name like SIKI or IKI my guess it puts the forest at risk from popularity

[J Patrick]

...questioning the value of the various materials used in guitar making is a relatively new phenomenon amongst guitar players....by and large we never cared about such things a few decades ago....spruce mahogany maple rosewood and ebony were the only woods that we could identify and base our choices on...glue was glue and finishes were shiny lacquer...guitars makers used what they could get and thats what we bought and played....

...this new attention to detail is something that is not limited to guitars...we scrutinize the details of everything...from coffee beans to bicycle frames...meanwhile the designers and crafters of modern products are experimenting and evaluating their materials and processes extensively trying to produce the best results they can...

...it aint gospel and its not myth or snake oil...like the great Master Po once told Grasshopper...high is high...low is low...but the middle lies in between...my point is that its all valid and this myriad of choices as both builders and players is part of the new "golden age" of guitar making....i view it as a good thing....

[J Patrick]

...duplicate deleted...

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Riakstonic

I was reading up on this a while ago but apparntly from other posts results may vary . It read that Aldi bracing if I'm saying this right ... Dulled the tops tone don't hate me lol I can't remember where this came from but at the time I was researching Guilds and found the models that I played to be rather stale , balanced yes but no real life I like Guilds to .

But again build has much to do with it and I'm always learning so hope I did just insert foot into mouth ... One of my adoring qualities lol

In the second video, presented earlier in this thread, John Greven states that he would use Adirondack Spruce bracing to tame some of the qualities of a couple of tops he was tapping. He also stated at 2:46 of that video that, "Here's a piece of master-grade White Spruce, also called Adirondack." John seems to be saying things in the video that seem counter to what we may think we've been told or maybe he was just a bit confused in the moment of live-video recording. At any rate, he seems to support what you've read about Adi bracing. I'm hoping more of our AGF luthiers will post their opinions on the application of Adirondack Spruce bracing and its general effect on tone.

[Riakstonic]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

In the second video, presented earlier in this thread, John Greven states that he would use Adirondack Spruce bracing to tame some of the qualities of a couple of tops he was tapping. He also stated at 2:46 of that video that, "Here's a piece of master-grade White Spruce, also called Adirondack." John seems to be saying things in the video that seem counter to what we may think we've been told or maybe he was just a bit confused in the moment of live-video recording. At any rate, he seems to support what you've read about Adi bracing. I'm hoping more of our AGF luthiers will post their opinions on the application of Adirondack Spruce bracing and its general effect on tone.

I'll check the vids missed them . Thanks

[Alan Carruth]

My own measurements of wood properties show that the Young's modulus along the grain of ALL softwoods varies in the same way with density, with surprisingly little scatter in the data. A piece of Sitka and one of Red spruce with the same density, worked to the same dimensions, will be very likely to have the same stiffness. If that's the only issue, there should be no difference.

High end makers use Red spruce for bracing for the same reason they choose fine-grained tops: they're easier to sell. There really is no difference in the properties, and in a blind test nobody can hear the difference, but since buyers believe there is one, and listen with their eyes, they hear what they expect to hear.

[rct]

Originally Posted by J Patrick

...questioning the value of the various materials used in guitar making is a relatively new phenomenon amongst guitar players....by and large we never cared about such things a few decades ago....spruce mahogany maple rosewood and ebony were the only woods that we could identify and base our choices on...glue was glue and finishes were shiny lacquer...guitars makers used what they could get and thats what we bought and played....

I agree completely. A lot of times though what is left out is that the (over)analysis of great guitar builders and great guitar materials is always done in the vacuum of no player. Give a Pre-War Martin built exactly right, a Lowden, SCGC, any other boutique builder using the creamiest of materials to an inexperienced player and they will all sound the same amount of not great.

rct

[BrunoBlack]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

My own measurements of wood properties show that the Young's modulus along the grain of ALL softwoods varies in the same way with density, with surprisingly little scatter in the data. A piece of Sitka and one of Red spruce with the same density, worked to the same dimensions, will be very likely to have the same stiffness. If that's the only issue, there should be no difference.

High end makers use Red spruce for bracing for the same reason they choose fine-grained tops: they're easier to sell. There really is no difference in the properties, and in a blind test nobody can hear the difference, but since buyers believe there is one, and listen with their eyes, they hear what they expect to hear.

This is good. It is difficult for me to imagine anything different could be possible.

Paul

[OddManOut]

Originally Posted by Gasworker

We should give Sitka a groovier name like SIKI or IKI my guess it puts the forest at risk from popularity

Engi...Carpi...Alpi...

The list just goes on and on...