Adi bracing vs Sitka bracing -- myth?

[lizzard]

I'm not saying "don't buy Red"

I'm saying caveat-emptor

It's ALL the builder.

Chris

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Haasome

So the short question: what is the difference and what different sound properties result from using Adi braces? And what is the basis for the conclusion?

I agree with your sentiment, and wonder where and how the notion of the benefits of red spruce bracing originated.

Is it one more of those "common knowledge" issues that remains unanswered? Suppose one could be cynical and consider it just another example of hype designed to increase the cost or perceived value of a guitar.

Red spruce bracing may make little difference in tone on average, but I'd like to think that -- somewhere in the history of this idea - that it has some basis in attempting to optimize the responsiveness of the guitar.

Must be something beyond the notion that "red spruce is cool". Or am I just grasping at straws?

[Jimmy Caldwell]

It's difficult to discern the differences between Adi bracing and Sitka bracing when looking at small sample sizes (one or two guitars) in a compressed time period. For me, it took many guitars over a long period of time to be able to notice a difference in the two, and the difference isn't always discernible with every guitar. There are just too many variables.

I can say that as a whole, I think that Sitka braces do tend to emphasize bass response, but not at the expense of the mids and trebles. They remain clear and focused to my ear. If I'm building for a vintage type tone, I always use Sitka braces.

If I'm building for a more contemporary sound, I'll use Adi brace stock, as I find it gives a brighter sound (to my ear, YMMV) that promotes a more balanced sound across the entire tonal spectrum.

Working the two materials is entirely different and if you're ever unsure if a piece of spruce is Sitka or Adi, just put a chisel to it. The Sitka will seem somewhat soft and stringy and almost seems a little "fuzzy". The Adi will cut cleanly with almost no resistance and is a real pleasure to work with.

I routinely use both spruces as each has it's advantages. I like them both.

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Bob Taylor mentioned in Wood & Steel a few years back that he felt Adirondack Spruce bracing gave the notes or tones a little extra spring off the pick or top (or something to that effect). True? Maybe or maybe not but when Bob Taylor speaks ...

I ordered adi CV bracing on my Taylor BTO a few years ago. I had heard from the dealer and from others that it did make a difference. Can I hear it, I have no idea.

[westman]

I’d urge anyone who has a question or interest regarding soundboards and bracing to watch these two videos and consider they’re implications in the overall influence they could have on how a guitar sounds and responds given the variability of the materials and how they’re interpreted by a maker - if at all they are ‘assessed’ and worked in the build process to produce a particular result.
braces


soundboards

[Wade Hampton]

Odd Man Out wrote:

Originally Posted by OddManOut

The perception that Red Spruce bracing is categorically superior to Sitka bracing is largely due to the overall market perception that Red Spruce is a superior material. This is the way with the market for consumer goods, guitars being no different.

...... Don't get lost in the minutiae of the brace species. My advice is that you concern yourself with the builder's overall sound.

My feelings exactly.

As to why so many hand builders use red (Adirondack) spruce braces, whatever their personal beliefs on the subject, they're building guitars for a high end market. A high percentage of their customer base either wants or expects red spruce bracing now.

When I was working closely with Roy McAlister on a succession of guitars that he built for me, he mentioned his frustration with how many of his clients wanted Brazilian rosewood guitars. It wasn't as though disliked Brazilian rosewood as a tonewood, not at all, he just felt there were so many other fabulous tonewoods he could build with that might actually suit some of these players' needs better. But at that point probably three fourths of his customers wanted Brazilian rosewood backs and sides, so that's what he provided for them.

Back then, in the late 90's and early 2000's, nobody was obsessing about what woods should be used for bracing, although there was a lot of foolishness about the "importance" of bearclaw figuring. But these trends and fashions come and go, particularly when you're dealing with high end luxury goods like custom built guitars.

Once the species of wood used for bracing ceases to be a riveting concern for those who care about details like this, something else will come along to grip their imaginations.........

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by westman

I’d urge anyone who has a question or interest regarding soundboards and bracing to watch these two videos and consider they’re implications in the overall influence they could have on how a guitar sounds and responds given the variability of the materials and how they’re interpreted by a maker - if at all they are ‘assessed’ and worked in the build process to produce a particular result.
braces


soundboards

In the second video, at 2:46, John Greven picks up a piece of White Spruce (Picea glauca) and says, "Here's a piece of master-grade White Spruce, also called Adirondack." And here I thought Adirondack spruce had to be Red Spruce (Picea rubens), and I read somewhere that, more specifically, red spruce from higher altitudes in the Adirondack Mountains of New York State was true Adirondack Spruce when applied to instrument building. Has John made an error in classifying White Spruce as Adirondack Spruce?

Has anyone mentioned the economic and advertising benefits of adirondack bracing? A guy like Bob Taylor is always looking for ways to use all the wood he possibly can with minimal waste. So, wouldn't it make sense to start using that extra red spruce for braces and see what happens? Also, that's a heck of an advertising benefit, too...we all know we tend to gravitate towards any guitar with an adirondack top, so if we see that work anywhere in the specs, it'll peak out interest.

I've played a lot of guitars, some Sitka better than adirondack and vice versa, but put two in front of me with adirondack in the specs and I'll subconsciously go for the adirondack guitar first, even if it's only the bracing.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by blackeyeddog

Has anyone mentioned the economic and advertising benefits of adirondack bracing? A guy like Bob Taylor is always looking for ways to use all the wood he possibly can with minimal waste. So, wouldn't it make sense to start using that extra red spruce for braces and see what happens? Also, that's a heck of an advertising benefit, too...we all know we tend to gravitate towards any guitar with an adirondack top, so if we see that work anywhere in the specs, it'll peak out interest.

I've played a lot of guitars, some Sitka better than adirondack and vice versa, but put two in front of me with adirondack in the specs and I'll subconsciously go for the adirondack guitar first, even if it's only the bracing.

Taylor has and does use Adirondack (red spruce) for bracing on its higher-end models and on some Limited Edition offerings. I agree it would be nice if Bob used this material on all his guitars, at least 300 Series and above!

[Joe McNamara]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Bob Taylor mentioned in Wood & Steel a few years back that he felt Adirondack Spruce bracing gave the notes or tones a little extra spring off the pick or top (or something to that effect). True? Maybe or maybe not but when Bob Taylor speaks ...

...market-speak follows? :-)

This discussion is kind of funny for me - when you speak to Martin True Believers they'll go to war over the factoid that CFM apparently used Sitka bracing under red spruce on the 20's & 30's instruments, and some of Those In Possession of the Revealed truth often excoriate Martin for the company's failure to follow that practice when they introduced the Authentic models.


Joe

[sdelsolray]

Balsa wood braces are the best!

[00-28]

Originally Posted by MikeMcKee

Was recently discussing this with Tom at Redwood Acoustics…specifically on SCGC guitars, and the fact that their upgrade option is for both Adi bracing and hide glue in combination. Apparently, in their thought, the benefit of Adi bracing is fully realized when hide glue is used. Personally, I think it's an incredibly good upgrade.

I love this. $$$ Marketing at it's best $$$

........................Mike

[Wade Hampton]

Reveling in minutiae is part of the joy of this sort of forum, I know, but this is even more in the zone of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" than we normally find ourselves immersed in.


whm

[Wardo]

My CS HD-35 apparently has adirondack bracing but I'm pretty sure it would sound great anyway.

[Joe McNamara]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Reveling in minutiae is part of the joy of this sort of forum, I know, but this is even more in the zone of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
whm

86. Hope this helps.

Joe