Pickup choice for Gibson G45 (hole in bridgeplate)

[PineMarten]

I've just picked up a Gibson G45 Standard from 2020, I enjoy the sound unplugged but I feel the Fishman Sonitone has to go. It's a lot of stuff inside the guitar and I've never heard one sound more than tolerable. I'm most inclined to go for a simple passive bridgeplate pickup, since my use is fairly infrequent solo performing and I already have a small selection of belt clip and pedal preamps that would do the job with one.
But it's complicated by the bridgeplate of these guitars. There's a hole in the centre in between the line of the bridge pins and saddle, I guess from some clamping operation. On mine whatever fills the hole sits slightly below the level of the plate with a coating of dried titebond glue. I couldn't get a clear, well lit picture of mine but here's a screenshot from a certain YouTube video about the later G45 Generation model which has the same hole.



So I'm concerned that the middle disc of a K&K or JJB three head system would be partly over the hole and not make full, level contact with the bridgeplate. I think the slimmer Schatten HFN might just miss the hole, and if it does overlap a little, using the mounting putty might make things a bit more forgiving. Or another thought I had was that a two element transducer would avoid that spot - there's the Baggs Hifi, but I'd prefer to keep it passive.
A less obvious thought is to try a two-element disc system like a K&K Twin Spot or Big Twin, or the JJB 220. I have a JJB 220 in a cedar top, X braced cittern and it's actually less confused in the mids and easier to EQ than the JJB 330 in my Eastman OM. Granted, that's a floating bridge, but it does make me wonder how the two disc models would sound in a guitar.
I'm not in a big rush to gig with this guitar, so I can take a moment to consider my options, I will say, the higher end options are past what I want to spend, especially since most ship from the US and I'm in the UK.

[maxtheaxe]

I've had a couple K&K-equipped guitars that were a bit over-modulated, too hot in the midrange and the problem was solved by eliminating that center pad, using just the outer two. Both guitars sound great with only two pads and didn't sacrifice much level at all.

Also, there's a version of the JJB pickups, basically the same type as K&K, that only comes with two pads (The 'Prestige 220' as I recall). I have that on one of my guitars (Larrivee DV-10k) and it sounds great...I think the pads on those are slightly bigger diameter than the PWM, but not as big as the old original Pure Western from K&K.

FWIW, I'm using the K&K XLR Mach II preamp with these.

[PineMarten]

Originally Posted by maxtheaxe

I've had a couple K&K-equipped guitars that were a bit over-modulated, too hot in the midrange and the problem was solved by eliminating that center pad, using just the outer two. Both guitars sound great with only two pads and didn't sacrifice much level at all.

Also, there's a version of the JJB pickups, basically the same type as K&K, that only comes with two pads (The 'Prestige 220' as I recall). I have that on one of my guitars (Larrivee DV-10k) and it sounds great...I think the pads on those are slightly bigger diameter than the PWM, but not as big as the old original Pure Western from K&K.

FWIW, I'm using the K&K XLR Mach II preamp with these.

Ah, that's good to hear, that someone has used the JJB 220 successfully on a good flat top guitar. I actually have one in a drawer that I intended to put in a mandolin some time, so trying that might be the simplest route.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by PineMarten

Ah, that's good to hear, that someone has used the JJB 220 successfully on a good flat top guitar. I actually have one in a drawer that I intended to put in a mandolin some time, so trying that might be the simplest route.

I installed a 220 in a classical guitar because the bridge plate was spanned by a top brace through the center of the bridge plate. The two center strings were pretty much inaudible, but if that's what you want...

I ended up pulling the 2 transducers and installing a 4 head K&K.

[kvnc77]

The Baggs Hi-fi doesn’t mount in the center. It’s active so you’d have the battery in there but at least you wouldn’t have the UST.

[PineMarten]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

I installed a 220 in a classical guitar because the bridge plate was spanned by a top brace through the center of the bridge plate. The two center strings were pretty much inaudible, but if that's what you want...

I ended up pulling the 2 transducers and installing a 4 head K&K.

Well, I don't *want* string-to-string imbalance, it's just a point of curiosity that if the Baggs HiFi is a successful two element bridge plate pickup, it seems like other two element systems might be viable.
I'm also still considering the Schatten since it has a more forgiving mounting type and looks like it may be slim enough to miss the hole. Plus it sounds good in demos I've heard, a touch more open and airy than the others.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by PineMarten

Well, I don't *want* string-to-string imbalance, it's just a point of curiosity that if the Baggs HiFi is a successful two element bridge plate pickup, it seems like other two element systems might be viable.
I'm also still considering the Schatten since it has a more forgiving mounting type and looks like it may be slim enough to miss the hole. Plus it sounds good in demos I've heard, a touch more open and airy than the others.

Do consider the shape of the HiFi transducers, there's a reason they have that shape. The elongated elements probably have a lot to do with how the bridge plate movements are converted to electrical energy.

It's always interesting to see how new pickup designs are evaluated when they are released. It's almost always "the latest, greatest thing since sliced bread" initially, and then more realistic reviews after the new car smell wears off a bit. I'm certainly seeing that with the HiFi pickup reviews.

I haven't seen near as many reviews of the Shatten. I wonder if that's due to many users who don't get that initial sense of how great the pickup sounds? It also might relate to a lower push towards marketing by Shatten.

If I was going to do a install on the Gibby I'd reach in with sandpaper to make sure the mid position area was flat and do a conventional install of a K&K PM. I do know that there aren't nearly as many glowing reviews of the K&K in Gibsons, but that might relate the the bridge plate that is used. At least that's my best guess.

[PineMarten]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

I haven't seen near as many reviews of the Shatten. I wonder if that's due to many users who don't get that initial sense of how great the pickup sounds? It also might relate to a lower push towards marketing by Shatten.

If I was going to do a install on the Gibby I'd reach in with sandpaper to make sure the mid position area was flat and do a conventional install of a K&K PM. I do know that there aren't nearly as many glowing reviews of the K&K in Gibsons, but that might relate the the bridge plate that is used. At least that's my best guess.

I intend to give the bridgeplate a light cleanup with a small sanding block whichever pickup I install, as there is some glue squeeze around the hole with a piece of shaving stuck in it. It's really not the tidiest bridgeplate I've seen! But then budget Gibsons have been rough internally forever, and it does sound good. Though my concern with the K&K is that the filled hole sits slightly below the level of the plate so there would be a void under part of the middle element. Perhaps I'm overthinking it and using a little extra of the CA glue gel when attaching it would sort that out.

[Charlie Bernstein]

I wouldn't worry about it. Trandsucers can't hear holes.

The mandolin pickup only has two transducers. For a guitar, I'd want three.

[jonfields45]

I've put JJB 220s in several guitars and am happy with the results. My current acoustic has one.

[PineMarten]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

I've put JJB 220s in several guitars and am happy with the results. My current acoustic has one.

Ah, interesting! What position did you use for the two elements? Are they centred in between the E-A and B-E pairs like the outer two of a three element system, or another placement? And how do you find the sound compares to the three element JJB and K&K? (I realise you're likely to be applying an IR in your case, of course)
I'm weighing up in my head between "yep, sounds reasonable and I have one in the drawer already" and some vague sense that it feels like cheaping out...

[PineMarten]

Right, thinking about it some more, I'm going to go for it with the JJB 220 I have at hand already. I'll record a little with it across different picking styles to assess the tone and balance, and if I'm not happy I can pop it off with a razor blade and pursue other options. Nothing to lose that way except a little time.

[maxtheaxe]

Originally Posted by PineMarten

Right, thinking about it some more, I'm going to go for it with the JJB 220 I have at hand already. I'll record a little with it across different picking styles to assess the tone and balance, and if I'm not happy I can pop it off with a razor blade and pursue other options. Nothing to lose that way except a little time.

Should work fine. Couple things...you shouldn't have any string imbalance at all, regardless of how they might sound on a classical (I think there's probably a very good reason that K&K's classical pups have four pads); also, some of the price difference between K&K/JJB can be accounted for in the fact that the JJB's don't come with all the stuff needed, and the clear directions, to mount them properly...I already had those items left over from prior installations of K&K's, otherwise I don't know what I would have done.

The tone isn't exactly the same as the K&Ks, but the difference is so subtle that it amounts to no difference at all.

[PineMarten]

Originally Posted by maxtheaxe

Should work fine. Couple things...you shouldn't have any string imbalance at all, regardless of how they might sound on a classical (I think there's probably a very good reason that K&K's classical pups have four pads); also, some of the price difference between K&K/JJB can be accounted for in the fact that the JJB's don't come with all the stuff needed, and the clear directions, to mount them properly...I already had those items left over from prior installations of K&K's, otherwise I don't know what I would have done.

The tone isn't exactly the same as the K&Ks, but the difference is so subtle that it amounts to no difference at all.

What I've done for the couple of prior JJB installations I've done was to make up a stiff card template with the pin holes and saddle position marked, using the top of the bridge for reference. Then I've pushed cut-off sections of takeaway chopstick through the two outside pin holes of the template for alignment, stuck the discs on the desired spots on the saddle line of the template with poster putty, and done a couple of practice runs getting it all inside the instrument before applying the glue to the discs and doing it for real. At least this one has a nice big soundhole and some room to work inside, it was a right faff on my parlour and cittern.

[PineMarten]

Update: I installed the JJB 220. I guess it was a worthwhile experiment, but it's definitely not the pickup for this guitar. Five of the strings sound fine, and then the D string is just the faintest ghost of a signal - it's cancelled almost completely between the two elements. So I'll be popping that one off again with a single edged blade!