Opening up already - Is it possible or in my head?

[jjbigfly]

Are there no moderates any more?
I think that perhaps if there is no single answer, then we should look to perhaps 2 answers.
First off…Used to sell high end stereo systems (way back in the day). Many clients would report back that they were hearing different things in music they listened to AFTER getting a new system. Ears get attuned to music…..maybe.

When you listen to music on a new (to you) instrument, what you hear is not going to be the same in a few hours, or days from now. I think this is because a new instrument (especially a “better” instrument) is going to make some tones that you have not been aware of. Further (I’m in this deep…) your ears will begin to learn these tones and the instrument will indeed sound better to you. Yes, I am saying that your hearing may improve, at least in the instrument area.

I also believe that after the “honeymoon” period, a new instrument will “Open Up” and actually improve it’s tone. And it may take a year or more (or less) but it may begin sounding better and better. I tend to think the change may be minor, but couple this with ears that are attuned to this instrument and you get something special. Seems like sonic waves (music) induced into wood makes everything work together to produce better tones.

And you will be hard pressed to argue this with me as I have no formal education in any of this and I am off the deep end at times anyway. I stressed the I THINK for a practical reason, I am just going on life experiences.

Wood seems to be a living thing even after you make it into an instrument, much like music ls.

[Blackmore Fan]

Somewhat related, I worry that "torrefied" tops "rush" the sound while simultaneously blocking any further opening up?

[Russ C]

I see logic in time based opening-up because wood physically changes with passing years - mass as hemicellulose leaves the cells and to some extent it’s shape because of stresses. Neither of those are hard to understand.

I don’t wish to challenge the observations of people who believe that playing hours make a difference (many of those players have better ears than I do) but I do not understand what physical or chemical changes occur to make that real.

Can anyone can enlighten me about that?

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Russ C

I see logic in time based opening-up because wood physically changes with passing years - mass as hemicellulose leaves the cells and to some extent itÂ’s shape because of stresses. Neither of those are hard to understand.

I donÂ’t wish to challenge the observations of people who believe that playing hours make a difference (many of those players have better ears than I do) but I do not understand what physical or chemical changes occur to make that real.

Can anyone can enlighten me about that?

Russ,

I think that some of the early "opening up" of a guitar may well come from the neck becoming more "engaged". An awful lot of resonance and tone is shaped by the vibrations from the neck end of the strings (be that nut or frets) getting back to the sound box. Wood is a little plastic and that pulling, particularly putting the truss rod under pressure, may make it easier for vibrations to pass down the neck into the body. Playing the strings will increase the string tension in jerking pulls (compared to just having a guitar sitting un-played) plus make the whole guitar vibrate - and this could engage the neck further. Think how a dead spot on a fret (normally because the fret is not tight in the fret slot at a specific point) kills the resonance, and you can see how important it is for the vibrations from the neck end of the strings to get back to the body.

Just from my own experience, I'd say that when changing strings - if I take them all off at once to work on my guitar - then the guitar has a short wake up period before the full resonance of the guitar comes back. If I change the strings one at time then this settling period seems a lot shorter to me.

So I do think that there is a difference between the woods ageing and changing a guitar's timbre in the long term and the shorter timescale "opening up", which is perhaps more due to the neck (and perhaps other parts) becoming more engaged and so able to pass vibrations better.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by dilver

I’ve owned this 2020 GIbson J-45 since December. It wasn’t played much by the previous owner, but Ive been playing it practically every day - some days for a couple of hours - since I got it. Just in the last week it sounds more resonant, drier and “airy-er” than it did before.

I haven’t changed the strings in about a month, and I swapped the saddle and pins for bone, but that was the first thing I did when I received it and the humidity and temperature are held at a constant in my guitar room. Is this the guitar just “settling in” or is it opening up a bit, or is it all in my head? Seems to be too soon as it took my Martin OM28V YEARS before it started top open up.

When I received my Furch (new) it was a bit on the bright side (cedar/rosewood). I swapped out the tusq saddle for bone, the tusq pins for ebony and I've been playing it frequently. I've also changed strings several times finally settling on a set of round core strings. As a result the guitar sounds mellower than what it was and closer to that sweet spot that I like. Plus I keep it humidified. No telling if what I did is caused the change or tone or the opening up process. My guess is that it's a bit of both.

[srick]

Originally Posted by Russ C

I don’t wish to challenge the observations of people who believe that playing hours make a difference (many of those players have better ears than I do) but I do not understand what physical or chemical changes occur to make that real.

Can anyone can enlighten me about that?

Hi Russ -

As you may have figured out, it’s all conjecture. But, some of the possible explanations I have heard are:

• Micro cracks occurring in the finish, allowing better vibration
• Vibration affecting glue in the joints, allowing glue creep and better apposition of the wood surfaces
• Vibration causing all parts to settle into an equilibrium
• Tension and vibration from the strings causing the neck to seat better
• Compression of the wood fibers in key areas of pressure causing better transmission of vibration

The common factor in all of those guesses, and I’m sure many others, is that vibration and playing makes a guitar sound better.

I had the pleasure of hearing this discussed by a panel composed of:Roger Sadowsky, Richard Hoover, Linda Manzer, Michael Gurian, Dick Boak and Chuck Emerson in 2018. Their conclusion was that guitars like to be played a lot and when they are, magic happens! LINK here

I wish I could have recorded that discussion, but these world class luthiers had no idea either as to what caused the phenomena, just that they all agreed that it was real.

A question that I have never seen addressed is: Do carbon fiber instruments open up? And for that matter, what about Ovation guitars?

Best,

Rick

[Mbroady]

I find it to be a matter of 2 separate occurrences .
Opening up as I understand and experienced it is about age of a guitar and how the wood becomes more vibrant, most often associated with a warmer sound with added low end and volume.

But a newer hardly played guitar after a short time of playing wakes up. Or as I have heard it said .....the guitar learns that it’s a guitar. It can be drastic or subtle. This depends on how heavy or light the build is and how much it’s played. It is a blurred line but waking up can be heard relatively fast and opening up can take years. With age a guitar will be become come less hydroscopic and the resin in the wood will dry up making the guitar lighter. Add in the constant vibration and you have a guitar that goes beyond waking up and starts to open up.

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by Blackmore Fan

Somewhat related, I worry that "torrefied" tops "rush" the sound while simultaneously blocking any further opening up?

I've wondered that, too. Not so long ago, I bought an Eastman E20-OM-TC after originally contemplating an E8-OM. When the sales rep drew my attention to the TC, I went for it, and without question it's a spectacular-sounding guitar. However, I sometimes wonder if I really needed the full Monty right from the get-go. Perhaps part of the pleasure of getting a new instrument is the gradual (or perceived!) improvement over the years. My inner jury is still out on that one!

[handers]

Different guitars open up at different rates. Some not at all. I know many good players of classical guitar would say that the guitar changes as they warm up. I knew one good player of a fine Rodriguez classical that told me that he could tell the difference after loaning the guitar for a week to someone else and that it took an hour or so to get it back to the guitar he knew. This may be fanciful but I think guitars are living objects that respond to changes in humidity, handling (attack, etc), strings and so many other ineffable factors.

I would absolutely believe that a newish guitar which was not played much would change favorably in a matter of a week or so if played extensively.

hans

[Alan Carruth]

Russ C asked:
"I don’t wish to challenge the observations of people who believe that playing hours make a difference (many of those players have better ears than I do) but I do not understand what physical or chemical changes occur to make that real."

Nobody does, yet. There are several proposed explanations, but we first need to show that some sort of physical change actually happens. It's not easy.

As a f'rinstance: several years ago I did an experiment that involved using a mechanical plucker to drive the strings on a guitar. This was based on the old 'wire break' method, where you loop a length of fine copper wire under the string and pull up on it until the wire breaks. The quality control needed to make wire that fine is so stringent that it always breaks at the same force, within about 2%. It's the best way to insure that you've got the same force at the same location along the string, and the same direction of initial movement, every time. The problem is that you get one pluck and have to re-load the device, and that takes a few minutes. There's no way to play 'music' with this.

I was doing several plucks on each open string of a guitar, so that I could compare them and make sure they were all the same; recording the sound in a standard way in my 'semi-anechoic closet'. I noticed that the first pluck in each series had a bit less output than the second, which was, in turn, a little less strong than subsequent plucks on the same string. It was as if the guitar was 'warming up'.

To test this I stuck a small magnet to the bridge, and used a coil to drive it, in effect turning the guitar into a speaker. I used a sine wave 'sweep' signal generated on my computer to drive it, running from ~50 Hz to 1000 Hz over one second. I recorded the output from the first 'cold' sweep, and then set the computer to loop for a few minutes, after which I recorded the output of another sweep. The 'after' sweep was more powerful than the 'before' one.

It was pointed out to me that the coil itself could have warmed up during the 'loop' period, which might have made a difference in the power it put into the guitar, or there could have been some other change. Since by then I'd dismantled the setup I didn't try fixing it, say by using a separate drive coil and magnet for the 'loop' portion.

And so it goes. We're dealing with very small amounts of power here, and 'small' changes have to be taken into account. None of this is outside of 'normal practice' in research, but in this case it's hard to see how a manufacturer could monetize this knowledge. Research on this sort of stuff is either done by engineering students who need to become familiar with the techniques of vibration analysis for later work on cars or aircraft, or else it's done by a few whackos such as myself who just want the answer. It doesn't pay any bills, so it's hard to make the time to do it.

[erhino41]

You are getting more attuned to the guitar. Your fingers and ears are calibrating to get the most out of the instrument.

[J Patrick]

Originally Posted by erhino41

You are getting more attuned to the guitar. Your fingers and ears are calibrating to get the most out of the instrument.

…certainly a partial explanation….and an important factor to consider…. but not a definitive explanation…..if you are suggesting that a guitars properties remain constant and do not change and that it is only the player that is changing…I’d have to disagree….

[Russ C]

Wow. Thanks for that reply Alan - it sure looks like you did observe warming-up. Strange but true it seems.

[srick]

Originally Posted by Russ C

Wow. Thanks for that reply Alan - it sure looks like you did observe warming-up. Strange but true it seems.

I want to second that.

Alan, over the years, your expertise, your explanations, and your depth of knowledge have really added to my enjoyment on this forum. I would love to be a fly on the wall on that day when you, Richard Hoover, and Dana Bourgeois have that hours long discussion about how guitars open up! But even though I am a science based being (like yourself) and adore your line of thinking, I still give a lot of credence to Roger Sadowsky’s claim that “magic happens!”

[erhino41]

Originally Posted by J Patrick

…certainly a partial explanation….and an important factor to consider…. but not a definitive explanation…..if you are suggesting that a guitars properties remain constant and do not change and that it is only the player that is changing…I’d have to disagree….

A guitar will change over time. How much and whether that is an improvement is what I question.

It's a fantastic thought, my already amazing guitar will only sound better as time goes on. This leads one to be biased. No matter how wonderful and perfect a human being one is, they can be and are biased in many ways.

I bought a 40 year old Lowden last spring. Any noticeable change this guitar will go through has already happened. The more time I spend with it the better it sounds. It certainly hasn't opened up in the 10 months I've owned it.

The more time you spend with any guitar, the better that guitar will sound to you. You are learning almost imperceivable changes in touch, fret pressure, picking attack, hand placement, etc, to maximize the qualities of the guitar.

Your ears are also becoming more sensitive to the guitar as well. Not to mention how different our ears will behave at any given time. Sometimes ears are more sensitive and sometimes they get fatigued. They're not perfect.

The two things that get glossed over in this debate are: humans are highly adaptable and our senses are not perfectly suited for the accurate measurement and recall that is needed to be definitive on this subject.

Our senses are excellent at measuring and responding to stimuli as it happens, and certainly there is a lot that is committed to memory. They are not perfectly calibrated and accurate devices that can recall and compare this information accurately.

I find it interesting that most subjects are approached with arguments about stringent scientific method, yet in this debate there is a lot of wiggle room that is conveniently minimized.