Chinese made guitars

[jsa3107]

Originally Posted by ricll

Not necessarily. One of the probable reasons why there are less jobs in manufacturing in the US and worldwide is the rise in productivity in most industries - fewer workers producing more. So even if you do buy local products that still doesn't mean more local jobs.

But buying American products will help keep job in America
being more productive means a company will make more money but people buying more will add jobs in the long run...

[jsa3107]

Originally Posted by jmcphail

The ability to manufacturer similar goods at a fraction of the price comes from *somewhere*.

It's generally accepted that industries of all kinds in China have fewer regulatory concerns than their counterparts in other nations.

There seems to be less infrastructure to support, and things like pension, unemployment insurance, health insurance, workplace safety standards, short- and long-term disability and profit sharing arrangements like 401K probably take a very different shape than we're used to seeing in other countries. Wages and taxes also probably look different.

I have read about the Three Gorges Dam project and the toll it has taken on the environment there, and about industries, like mining, with worker deaths numbering over a dozen per day being the norm. Other countries spend big bucks to avoid those things.

Being able to "skip" all of those inconvenient expenses create a competitive advantage for the Chinese manufacturers, who are able to use it in a brute force way to dominate low-cost market segments. It's not happening through innovation in design or fabrication.

I don't see why the guitar manufacturing industry in China would behave any differently than other industries. It's probably not as dirty as heavy industrial, and probably not as unsafe as mining, but I believe most if not all industries in China operate far differently than they would elsewhere where those practices would be unacceptable.

To just say that there hasn't been anything documented specifically ignores the larger picture IMO. I agree that it's important to deal in facts, by the way. It's important to understand the conditions that produce the goods you consume, and to weigh whether the savings you enjoy are worth the twofold cost of environmental and worker safety issues in the producing country and shrinking industries and the toll on displaced work forces in other countries that operate under different and more stringent standards.

I'm not faulting anyone for buying a Chinese guitar, but I disagree with the idea that cost is the only concern when you buy something, guitars or otherwise. We're all allowed to make our choices, but we also need to know that we're responsible for the effects of our choices.

Very well put....

[redcloud]

Originally Posted by jsa3107

Very well put....

+1 Very well said

[brian a.]

Originally Posted by gitnoob

There have been many of these threads, and nobody has ever documented the evils of the Chinese guitar industry. On the contrary, there are several youtube videos that offer factory tours of various Chinese makers, and the conditions seem fine, the workers seem happy, and the guitars seem to be well made.

If you want to take a stand on environmental and social issues, there are several issues here at home that may concern you.

If you'd rather talk guitars, we can do that too.

In a couple of posts you asked for proof or examples. Here is some interesting reading and viewing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/wo...hina.html?_r=1

http://www.mongabay.com/external/china's_environment_2004.htm

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/08...n-goes-global/

http://www.dipity.com/timetube/YouTube_Pollution/list

No eye protection or ear plugs. Only a very few with respirators or masks. Handheld drills and no CNC machines in evidence. Everyone is dressed like it is winter and there is no heat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFFvrHHct70

So if this info is what is allowed out of the country, what is happening that we're not allowed to see? How do they generate electricity? Where do they dump their waste? What about the air they breath? It is a global economy and a global environment.

With the knowledge, experience and science currently available, there is absolutely no need for any country to manufacture, farm or produce energy by unsafe or polluting means. IMHO, that includes the making of guitars. Shop wherever you like. Buy whatever you like. I try very hard to buy my food, clothes, cars, skis and guitars from business practicing the greenest techniques available today. More often than not, they do so because it is required of them by local or national governmental laws.

[Weird Snake Joe]

Just as it doesn't make a lot of economic sense for North American manufacturers to try to compete with the cheapest entry level guitars from Asia...

This logic needs a lot of explaination to understand why things are at where they are to make people believe that such a thing is remotely true or plausible.

It certainly doesn't jive for banjos, and retail centralization or the lack thereof may have a lot to do with that...

I don't see why the guitar manufacturing industry in China would behave any differently than other industries. It's probably not as dirty as heavy industrial, and probably not as unsafe as mining, but I believe most if not all industries in China operate far differently than they would elsewhere where those practices would be unacceptable.

I agree x100.

For me, personally, the MiC issue hasn't been about quality as it has been about pricing and market honesty. When Nike moved their shoe production across the waters, it was done with some PR that "the value would find its way to the consumer." I'm still waiting for that value whenever I see a Nike shoe.

The same goes for some of the guitar brands who build in countries with considerably lower SoL's than the US, Canada, Australia, Europe, and Japan. While I wish these manufacturers were all like Eastman and Yamaha, it's foolish to think they are. I don't wince at the idea of buying a MiC guitar because of supporting communism or helping to drive my neighbor or friend out of a job; I wince because of crooked and greedy means in which I'm being pitched the item. I'm supposed to believe that buying something 10-20x times what it cost to produce it is just as good for me, the consumer, as it is the producer, when I can clearly see that I'm not winning as much as the manufacturer.

[Bevelman]

I've played Stephen Bennett's Japanese Morris guitar and it is a superb instrument - very light and responsive with a clear tone. There's more info at http://artisanguitars.com/morris-gui...oustic-guitar/

It's not cheap by any means but it's worth the money.

[flagstaffcharli]

That guy in the video (5:10) was spraying the finish on that guitar with no mask (or maybe a little paper mask - hard to tell) in a closed space. Very, very bad. If he's doing that full-time I feel very bad for him and everyone else working with him. The woman a few feet from him definitely wasn't wearing a mask.

[brianmay]

Interesting that most of us are typing in this discussion using computers that are probably loaded with bits made in China (this Mac certainly is).

None of us have commented about that - it also 'took jobs away from xxx'.

In Europe, there are an incredible amount of Chinese-made goods around, and we're not even aware of it.

It IS globalisation, much of it driven economically by the very companies that you want to keep going.

Wake up and smell the roses.

My Guild JUST HAPPENED TO BE MADE IN CHINA - when they get expensive, it'll be made somewhere else. QED

[airguitarro]

Originally Posted by brian a.

In a couple of posts you asked for proof or examples. Here is some interesting reading and viewing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/wo...hina.html?_r=1

http://www.mongabay.com/external/china's_environment_2004.htm

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/08...n-goes-global/

http://www.dipity.com/timetube/YouTube_Pollution/list

No eye protection or ear plugs. Only a very few with respirators or masks. Handheld drills and no CNC machines in evidence. Everyone is dressed like it is winter and there is no heat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFFvrHHct70

So if this info is what is allowed out of the country, what is happening that we're not allowed to see? How do they generate electricity? Where do they dump their waste? What about the air they breath? It is a global economy and a global environment.

With the knowledge, experience and science currently available, there is absolutely no need for any country to manufacture, farm or produce energy by unsafe or polluting means. IMHO, that includes the making of guitars. Shop wherever you like. Buy whatever you like. I try very hard to buy my food, clothes, cars, skis and guitars from business practicing the greenest techniques available today. More often than not, they do so because it is required of them by local or national governmental laws.

With deepest respect, here are some alternative comments as food for thought and to see that maybe your view needs some adjustment and rethinking. I am not trying to be argumentative but knowing that this is a valuable marketplace of ideas, I would like to interact with the arguments posited in a bid to try to shine a different light on things for better mutual understanding, because I do not think the arguments made against Chinese guitars are self-coherent if examined anew and more closely.

Only one of the links that BrianA referred to was in relation to a guitar factory. The rest of the links appear to be based on guilt by association. They deal with well-known cases of abuses of the environment and workers' rights in China. However IMHO what the post appears to - in effect - be doing is to be judging the Chinese economy based on the fact that it is not the American economy.

Put yourself into the Chinese entrepreneuer's shoes for a minute. Is it the Chinese factory's fault that they are located in China and that their energy production comes from power plants powered by coal that was mined in unhealthy and dangerous ways? The whole country can't be ported instantly into where USA is. It takes a long time to bring a whole country up. What more with a country that has a centralised power structure controlled by a political party that is monolithic in its power demands.

However, until the day that China morphes into an American or European standard economy, should American consumers not buy their goods? What if European countries had imposed similar standards on American exports in the 19th century, when labor was supplied by slaves, cheap exploited immigrants of various nationalities, etc. and environmental depredations were being done everywhere? America may not have arisen to its current elevated state among the nations. Yes, one can say, that was then, this is now. But one can only deal with one's state of progress and problems at any given time. The problems of rising upwards on the prosperity ladder are still there.

Yes, it is inexcusable in the light of today's technology for OSHA and environmental protection standards not to be maintained - for an industrialised nation of such vast and sophisticated means as USA. But what about countries in Latin America, Asia, Africa, which have large portions of their population at subsistence level? Despite China's rising status, vast proportions of its population remain at a very basic level in the countryside. Such vertical perfection frm energy generation to procurement of labor and resources, etc may not be possible within their economic means to comply with such standards because a lot of that is beyond the power of the individual manufacturer.

What China and countries like China have is a vast pool of citizens who are young, eager to learn, hard working, intelligent, and flexible.

Also, should you want environmental and OSHA perfection in all your goods and services, to be consistent with your approach, you need to make sure that all your clothes, goods, foodstuffs, etc. were made in industrialised nations such as USA, the EU or Canada with the full panel of green-compliant and OSHA standards. If it was made in Asia, Latin America, etc, chances are it will probably fail your test. The produce - coffee, etc - that we eat come from African and Asian countries that may also fail such tests. Does that mean that one should not buy goods made by all such countries?

Concerning the one link relating to a guitar factory, the only thing that can be said is that some of the workers spraying the guitar bodies were wearing too basic respirators. I don't think the ear protection argument is conclusive as that depends on the level of noise being produced at the work station concerned.

Why does CNC machinery have to be used? Such equipment are not only for speed of production but also for labor saving reasons that come down to cost of wages. The need to save on wages is less in China since wages are lower than in USA.

I do not see what internal heating has to do with anything - it may be standard practice for Chinese houses and factories to be unheated and that everyone is used to wearing clothing. I do not see anyone discomfited in the least by the cold. Everyone is behaving normally and working normally, and no one appears to be suffering from the cold at all.

[airguitarro]

I was just also imagining that the Chinese worker in that factory who may have left his hometown to travel to the city to work a few years ago, and who needs this job because he is sending money back to his family, would be awfully surprised to learn that the American consumers are so concerned for his health and his welfare that they are refusing to buy guitars made by him and his co-workers, thereby causing the factory to close down and him to lose his job. He may actually be of the view that his welfare is better served if you continue to buy the guitars so that he can keep his job and earn his keep. Eventually he can either be promoted or move on to a better job...

[airguitarro]

Originally Posted by Weird Snake Joe

This logic needs a lot of explaination to understand why things are at where they are to make people believe that such a thing is remotely true or plausible.

It certainly doesn't jive for banjos, and retail centralization or the lack thereof may have a lot to do with that...



I agree x100.

For me, personally, the MiC issue hasn't been about quality as it has been about pricing and market honesty. When Nike moved their shoe production across the waters, it was done with some PR that "the value would find its way to the consumer." I'm still waiting for that value whenever I see a Nike shoe.

The same goes for some of the guitar brands who build in countries with considerably lower SoL's than the US, Canada, Australia, Europe, and Japan. While I wish these manufacturers were all like Eastman and Yamaha, it's foolish to think they are. I don't wince at the idea of buying a MiC guitar because of supporting communism or helping to drive my neighbor or friend out of a job; I wince because of crooked and greedy means in which I'm being pitched the item. I'm supposed to believe that buying something 10-20x times what it cost to produce it is just as good for me, the consumer, as it is the producer, when I can clearly see that I'm not winning as much as the manufacturer.

OK, but I am sure you will agree that is not the fault of the Chinese banjo maker. He fulfilled his part of the bargain. He probably sold the banjos at a very low price to the American company that commissioned them who then marked up the price before selling them to retailers who marked up the price some more. For shoes like Nike etc., the shoes were provided by the Philippine or Chinese OEM makers at a very low price but the price was jacked up by the American company for its American market after adding the perceived benefits of its brand.

[rlouie]

once again folks, I ask that you refrain from posting your political views or points in this thread..................

[jmcphail]

Strongly Agree.

Understanding what you're buying *in addition* is key.

Whether you decide that you also want the byproducts of your purchase or not is your choice.

Ethics at work in everyday life.

Originally Posted by brian a.

There should be more to any purchase decision than saving money.

[brian a.]

Originally Posted by rlouie

once again folks, I ask that you refrain from posting your political views or points in this thread..................

Oh, so only some opinions and/or points of view get censored ....

[airguitarro]

OK, I will end my posts on this thread at this point then.

Originally Posted by rlouie

once again folks, I ask that you refrain from posting your political views or points in this thread..................