So sad, open mics in my small town shut down by ASCAP licensing

[Explorer]

Originally Posted by AMW

For the last three years, we've had pretty regular in-store performances after hours by a lot of underground acoustic acts. A lot of American Primitive, singer/songwriter, experimental, roots and old time, modern fingerstyle, etc..

ASCAP... wanted us to pay a blanket license, about $300 per year, that would supposedly cover any of their artists' rights in the event that someone decided to perform a song that they didn't own the rights to.

So... how do they know who played what song? They don't. They did expect us to send them detailed accounting of who played every show, how many people came, who was paid what and what they played... would sound doable (but unrealistic, really) if we were a proper venue, but way more of a to-do than necessary for what were essentially house shows... but how do the artists actually get paid again?

Ultimately, we surmised that ASCAP was coming after us because of Facebook events and alt-weekly listings, and we weren't going to pretend we weren't having shows... but the main reason that we didn't decide to "go legit" with them (other than the fact that we couldn't imagine a scenario where one of our tiny in-stores resulted in any payout to anybody via publishing) was that we deduced that as soon as we were on their books, BMI and every other publishing company would come calling. All of the sudden, we're looking at a hefty yearly licensing bill for something that was never intended to be a revenue stream, just a friendly place where people could play to a small, loving audience. No shortage of venues in Pittsburgh, to be sure, but there was nothing quite like AMW.

Really sorry to hear that it's even affecting open mics, arguably one of the least profitable (but most developmentally important) corners of the whole live music industry! Seems crazy!

All that said, very happy with all of the great people that played our place. Glenn Jones, Nathan Salsburg, Michael Gullezian, Andreas Kapsalis, Milo Jones, Evan Cory Levine, Sam Moss, Hoot & Holler, Ross Hammond, Daniel Bachman (x4), Devon Flaherty, Daryl Shawn, Aaron Lefebvre, Antoine Dufour, Ian Ethan Case, The Matchsellers, Corn Potato String Band, Dan Higgs, Pairdown, etc etc... wouldn't trade those nights for anything. From what I hear there's a "listening room" movement bubbling up around the country, and that might well be the future of live acoustic music, underground, anyway.

So, assuming it was once a week, at $300 a year, that would be $6 a concert to pay the fee. Would my math be right on that?

I understand thinking of a concert series as having no ancillary benefit to the business hosting and promoting it, and also of thinking that no one could possibly be associating (in this case) AMW the music store promoting the concerts on their social media and possibly elsewhere with AMW the music store, which just happened to share the same advertising and social media outlets.

I was fortunate enough to meet people like Taj Mahal, Judy Collins, Pierre Bensusan and others who played in the concert series associated with the music store I worked for. We payed our fees, and the concerts worked as a form of advertising for the store, as well as a way to bring performers to our community and to keep certain musics alive and well... including the performers who owned the rights to the music.

Originally Posted by 6L6

A few years back ASCAP/BMI went through San Francisco like a buzzsaw with predictable results. The once vibrant O/M scene was decimated.

When a few of the clubs went to originals only, people stopped coming because, well... most originals are way too long and not very good.

This is a more realistic acknowledgment of how much copyrighted music is being performed without any payment to the rights holders, more so than the numerous responses of "Well, how do they know any protected works are being performed?" If the only way to have a viable venue is to violate someone'a rights, that sounds iffy.

I once sat with a friend who owns a medium coffee shop, and who had been approached by a PRO because of his open mics. We recorded the full open mic, including each performer's introduction of the music they were performing, and later went over it to see how much muaic was protected. Half or more was.

It really changed the conversation as we were going through the list, because up until then his viewpoint had been, Well, most of what gets played is originals! How dare they!

Originally Posted by 6L6

If I was an old recording artist I'd be thrilled to hear someone playing my songs. I'd hope it might inspire an unknowing young generation to go buy my Greatest Hits record. That would net me far more cash than hoping ASCAP would pay me out of Open Mic holdups.

It would definitely be your right to put your music into the public domain, just as it is the right of other writers to keep and exercise their rights.

----

A musical instrument store I frequent recently went with a different approach. The owner only allows music which is original to the employees, and gets signed permission to play it. This was in the wake of the store being approached by BMI because of the constant stream of copyrighted music being played in-store, compounded by the store having promoted a few shows outside on weekends.

----

One more thought: I still know plenty of people who actively self-promote, record, and work to get booked into concert series. I understand wanting to make it easy for anyone to get up on stage and perform someone else's material, but rest assured, if someone has the drive, they will find a way to get out there with their own material, or to get booked into venues which cover the fees.

[Mr. Paul]

BMI is threatening court action against a friend who hosts 7 - 8 house concerts a year, and their rep is getting very nasty about it. Attendance is by invitation only. The artists get every penny collected as well as lodging and food. Very rare for a cover to be played as anyone knows that attends house concerts.

I volunteer for our local community radio station and am in charge of making sure BMI, SESAC, ASCAP and Soundexchange gets paid what they have coming, but BMI can kiss my grits when it comes to strong arming house concert hosts.

[SalFromChatham]

deleted. Not worth it.

[DesertTwang]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

I understand that but two points:

1. I really think the artists miss a chance to get their music out there with minimal damage. I played "Behind Blue Eyes" people were asking who did that song? Think that may interest some people to listen to The Who?

2. Might makes right, or Big Money talks, UTube seems to be able to hold its own, but a small coffee shop gets a letter, and the inability to defend themselves. It's the brave new world we live in. I remember a time when I could watch the Rose Bowl on Network TV, now you have to give a cut to ESPN. I didn't watch it this year, I cut the cable.

I completely agree with this. Plus, there is an important factor here that rarely gets talked about: Nobody is going to pay money for a ticket to see a no-name guy playing songs by professional artists. It would be one thing if we're talking a tribute concert by a professional cover band, but not a tiny venue with a smattering of folks in the audience who would forego a concert by their favorite artist because they to get to hear their music for free at some coffee shop.

I think it really is all about big money these days, wherever you look. Just yesterday, while attending a workshop on copyright, I learned that the NFL sued a church who hosted a viewing of some game, and won. I don't follow football, or any other sports, but that alone would make me cut the cable if I had it.

[amyFB]

I think the objective is good: of protecting a musician intellectual property and providing a mechanism to pay royalties.

What way could be more effective than the current one (ASCAP, BMI, etal) for both beginner and experienced performer?

Registering a copyright is one step.

Getting the money is the harder part.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DesertTwang]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

I am sure you are right. The best avenue in a small town is to stay off the grid. Advertise by posters, flyiers, and word of mouth. We are our own worse enemy, we rely on the internet for our total communications. Stay off the grid and they would never find you. But I'm not running a business that's trying to keep above water.

So we should let big corporate greed drive us into hiding? Somehow I don't feel that's an acceptable solution.

[J.DrewPetersen]

A tough one. Been on both sides of this, having received royalties for radio airplay (miniscule!) and International TV use (significant, by my standards anyway), and more recently having a gig cancelled when the venue got a menacing ASCAP letter. I guess it's still safe to play older public domain stuff, but try convincing a pub owner once they're nervous. I also guess I misunderstood when I thought I had rights to perform my own stuff, whether BMI listed or not (joined them 'cos it was free). Somewhere I heard we could offer a disclaimer to a venue, stating there were no rights issues with the repertoire performed (good luck convincing a nervous pub owner, again).

[Doubleneck]

Obviously, there is no way to connect the songs that are played at a open mic to the artist who wrote them? So where does the money go if the fees are paid? Probably the majority to ASCAP salaries and or to perpetuate the organization. I assume a portion goes to a huge pool of artists with the current big names getting the most?

It almost seems like the Mafia that would get protection money by extorting small business that had no defense. Yes, I know that's an extreme example, but it feels similar but under the guise of something noble. All the more hideous really.

I'm sorry I even started this thread, my first open mic trying to have some fun in my hometown and it evolves into this.

[J.DrewPetersen]

Originally Posted by Mr. Paul

BMI is threatening court action against a friend who hosts 7 - 8 house concerts a year, and their rep is getting very nasty about it. Attendance is by invitation only. The artists get every penny collected as well as lodging and food. Very rare for a cover to be played as anyone knows that attends house concerts.

I volunteer for our local community radio station and am in charge of making sure BMI, SESAC, ASCAP and Soundexchange gets paid what they have coming, but BMI can kiss my grits when it comes to strong arming house concert hosts.

Very sorry to hear this, Paul. We all seem to be in a tight spot with these guys,
and I need to find out if they truly have control of your own original material if you're a member. That seems just- wrong. The details of what you can and can't play also become less important once the intimidation begins...

[bitraker]

Composers are entitled to compensation if you play their songs at a public venue. That's the law.

agree - those who create intellectual/artistic property need to be compensated

I think it really is all about big money these days,

it's about obeying the law no matter what the profession - don't assume that the only people being ripped off are greedy rock stars...

only when you create a product that has been continually ripped off, and you've heard all the straw arguments as to why the public has a right to rip you off (greedy big money; I can't afford it; I'm not hurting anyone; everyone else is doing it), will you understand

.

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by bitraker

agree - those who create intellectual/artistic property need to be compensated

No one would argue that but the question is are the artists whose songs are sung really the ones being compensated?

The other question would be one of materiality, the revenue so small and the harm probably non-existent.

[bitraker]

No one would argue that but the question is are the artists whose songs are sung really the ones being commentated?

then you'd have to follow the money, which is a different topic

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

Played a open mic tonight and the Coffee House had to have it on the stage of a local nonprofit art center to avoid ASCAP licensing issues. We have a nice growing downtown with lots of small venues to play but I guess you can't do it unless you have original music. I know it's been talked about here but this is the first time I have seen it in action, just retired and thought it would be fun to play some of my old songs. The day the music died, nothing is just fun anymore. Wonder if George would have really cared that I played "Here Comes The Sun"?

From what you wrote it sounds to me that your open mic can still exist, albeit in a different and quite legal venue.

I understand your concern, but there are valid and lawful reasons why venues that operate for profit are required to pay licensing fees. One reason the patrons of those venues are there is to hear the music. Those patrons are spending money, and the venue is profiting on that money. Why shouldn't songwriters be compensated for the songs that they legally own the rights to in that profit-oriented environment?

Also, those licensing fees are completely negotiable. I've seen them go down drastically once the owner and the royalty organization work out a plan. Those fees can easily be compensated for by the venue charging a very nominal admission charge.

Finally, some, albeit not all, venues use open mics instead of paying for live entertainment, which further puts a strain on the professional musician. It's one thing to have an open mic on a real off night, say Monday. But I've seen some venues operate open mics on other nights when business was booming.

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

No one would argue that but the question is are the artists whose songs are sung really the ones being compensated?

The other question would be one of materiality, the revenue so small and the harm probably non-existent.

Yes, they are. The money collected by the royalty agencies from those venues, and there are thousands of them, goes into the royalty companies budget, which is then used to pay to the artists of that particular organization. Of course nobody from say, BMI is sitting at each venue keeping track of which song is played. That would be ridiculous.

Your other concern is the size of the venue. There's an old saying... that one snowflake can't possibly be responsible for an avalanche. Think about it.

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

From what you wrote it sounds to me that your open mic can still exist, albeit in a different and quite legal venue.

I understand your concern, but there are valid and lawful reasons why venues that operate for profit are required to pay licensing fees. One reason the patrons of those venues are there is to hear the music. Those patrons are spending money, and the venue is profiting on that money. Why shouldn't songwriters be compensated for the songs that they legally own the rights to in that profit-oriented environment?

Also, those licensing fees are completely negotiable. I've seen them go down drastically once the owner and the royalty organization work out a plan. Those fees can easily be compensated for by the venue charging a very nominal admission charge.

Finally, some, albeit not all, venues use open mics instead of paying for live entertainment, which further puts a strain on the professional musician. It's one thing to have an open mic on a real off night, say Monday. But I've seen some venues operate open mics on other nights when business was booming.

Toby if you heard the "artists" at this open mic I don't think you would be concerned about these guys costing any professional their job. Most of the night was truely painful! Lol