Convert your Acoustic to a Baritone, or a Bb Guitar

[GuitarinBb]

This likely doesn't show the tone of the Thompson Bari so well, but through a decent system some of the tone will come through. I should just make a good stereo recording of the guitar alone and post it here for some idea of how it is.

https://soundcloud.com/wootzy/the-way-she-smiles

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Steven, what makes it (or anything, I guess) a "C" instrument? Your link is just a list.

It has to do with a comparison of the pitch the instrument creates and the corresponding pitch as written in standard music notation. If they are the same then the instrument is a non-transposing instrument aka a C instrument. Thus if you play a C pitch/note written in standard notation on a staff, a C instrument will generate a C pitch. A Bb instrument will generate a Bb pitch, even though the note on the staff is written as a C pitch.

The guitar is actually transposed one octave up in standard notation. It's middle C pitch is written on the third space of the treble clef staff, whereas a middle C pitch for a piano is written on the first ledger line below the treble clef staff.

[GuitarinBb]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

It has to do with a comparison of the pitch the instrument creates and the corresponding pitch as written in standard music notation. If they are the same then the instrument is a non-transposing instrument aka a C instrument. Thus if you play a C pitch/note written in standard notation on a staff, a C instrument will generate a C pitch. A Bb instrument will generate a Bb pitch, even though the note on the staff is written as a C pitch.

The guitar is actually transposed one octave up in standard notation. It's middle C pitch is written on the third space of the treble clef staff, whereas a middle C pitch for a piano is written on the first ledger line below the treble clef staff.

So well said!

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

It has to do with a comparison of the pitch the instrument creates and the corresponding pitch as written in standard music notation. If they are the same then the instrument is a non-transposing instrument aka a C instrument. Thus if you play a C pitch/note written in standard notation on a staff, a C instrument will generate a C pitch. A Bb instrument will generate a Bb pitch, even though the note on the staff is written as a C pitch.

The guitar is actually transposed one octave up in standard notation. It's middle C pitch is written on the third space of the treble clef staff, whereas a middle C pitch for a piano is written on the first ledger line below the treble clef staff.

Am I to assume that what you mean by the pitch that the instrument creates is the pitch that it gives without fingering, say, any of the valves of a trumpet or a sax?

[philjs]

It always amazes me that some folks here have little issue with standard-tuned (or even DADGAD-tuned) guitars with scales as short as 24" but as soon as anyone mentions a short-scale "baritone" (or, tuned down one whole step, perhaps semi-baritone) then the naysayers come out with "oh, no, you can't do that!" Generally, they'll say something like, "well, it won't hold it's own at a session or in a group" unless it has a 28" or longer scale but I beg to differ!

Like the OP, I have a guitar that is setup for a semi-baritone tuning, in my case to CGCFGC, a full step below DADGAD so the 1st, 2nd and 6th strings are actually tuned down two steps and the 3rd to 5th are tuned down one step from standard, and it works very well. It's a '90 Larrivee J-09, a full 17" jumbo, with a slightly longer scale (25.7") using a custom set of strings (EXP singles in .015, .022w, .026,. 035, .045 and .070 with a total tension of 163.1 lbs, just slightly more than a light-gauge set on a 25.5" scale).

For anyone who thinks, "wow, an .070 for a bass string" keep in mind that the 28.3 lbs of tension at C is actually LESS than an .056 which has 29.1 lbs of tension at E. The Larrivee was set up specifically for those gauges and has been played this way for about 15 years now. It works quite nicely in ensemble work, too.

I also have a more recent fan-fret baritone, also a full 17" jumbo, 26" to 27.25" scale that I tune down to BbFBbEbFBb (two whole steps down from DADGAD, or 3 steps down for the 1st, 2nd and 6th strings, and two steps down for the 3rd to 5th, from standard) with similar string gauges (a light-gauge set with the 1st string discarded and a .070 bass string added, total 181.9 lbs or about 5 lbs less than a medium-gauge set at standard on a 25.5" scale) and it ALSO works very well, alone or in an acoustic ensemble.

A baritone does not have to have a 28" or longer scale to BE a baritone...it just needs to be appropriately strung for the intended pitches and then played.

Phil

[Mr Bojangles]

Originally Posted by GuitarinBb

I have only extensively played the Alvarez Baritone, and the Santa Cruz, and spent a small amount of time with a few other models. I converted my Thompson because I had it already, at the time there were precious few baritones available, and hey were either sub-standard like the Alvarez, or over the top pricey like the Santa Cruz. I have played my Thompson a lot, both acoustically and plugged in, and many other people have played it, and every time without a doubt people are blown away in love with the tone and depth, and I dare say, versatility (this likely needs to be defined a bit more for all concerned, too open ended a word) of this guitar. It might be wise to be a little slower to make such a clear assessment on something you haven't seen or heard.

Sub-standard like the Alvarez? That sounds like a clear assessment to me, in spite of the fact that you have played one extensively.

[drive-south]

Originally Posted by philjs

It always amazes me that some folks here have little issue with standard-tuned (or even DADGAD-tuned) guitars with scales as short as 24" but as soon as anyone mentions a short-scale "baritone" (or, tuned down one whole step, perhaps semi-baritone) then the naysayers come out with "oh, no, you can't do that!" Generally, they'll say something like, "well, it won't hold it's own at a session or in a group" unless it has a 28" or longer scale but I beg to differ!

Like the OP, I have a guitar that is setup for a semi-baritone tuning, in my case to CGCFGC, a full step below DADGAD so the 1st, 2nd and 6th strings are actually tuned down two steps and the 3rd to 5th are tuned down one step from standard, and it works very well. It's a '90 Larrivee J-09, a full 17" jumbo, with a slightly longer scale (25.7") using a custom set of strings (EXP singles in .015, .022w, .026,. 035, .045 and .070 with a total tension of 163.1 lbs, just slightly more than a light-gauge set on a 25.5" scale).

For anyone who thinks, "wow, an .070 for a bass string" keep in mind that the 28.3 lbs of tension at C is actually LESS than an .056 which has 29.1 lbs of tension at E. The Larrivee was set up specifically for those gauges and has been played this way for about 15 years now. It works quite nicely in ensemble work, too.

I also have a more recent fan-fret baritone, also a full 17" jumbo, 26" to 27.25" scale that I tune down to BbFBbEbFBb (two whole steps down from DADGAD, or 3 steps down for the 1st, 2nd and 6th strings, and two steps down for the 3rd to 5th, from standard) with similar string gauges (a light-gauge set with the 1st string discarded and a .070 bass string added, total 181.9 lbs or about 5 lbs less than a medium-gauge set at standard on a 25.5" scale) and it ALSO works very well, alone or in an acoustic ensemble.

A baritone does not have to have a 28" or longer scale to BE a baritone...it just needs to be appropriately strung for the intended pitches and then played.

Phil

Where are the naysayers in this thread? I see none of that. Setup and play your' guitar any way you like.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Am I to assume that what you mean by the pitch that the instrument creates is the pitch that it gives without fingering, say, any of the valves of a trumpet or a sax?

No, he's referring to particular notes.
The frequency for Middle C is 261.63. He's saying that on sheet music written for piano, that note is represented by the C that is one line below the treble staff as shown in this picture..


And he's saying that on sheet music written for guitar, that same note/frequency is represented by the C that is just to the right in the top half of the picture.

[Mooh]

In the mid '90s, prior to purchasing a "baritone" (I use quotation marks because it's a 27" scale length rather than the perhaps more usual longer scales...no judgement, I still call it a baritone), I experimented a lot with gauging up and tuning down on a '70s Takamine dreadnought. Some re-slotting of the nut and re-compensation of the saddle were required, and it's the compensation that limited the possibilities for me. This particular guitar just didn't have the ability to properly compensate for the lower pitched strings, though it otherwise sounded okay. It was okay down to D and C# standard, but beyond that it was hard to tune, and sounded dull and lifeless. It was a fun and educating experience, one which lead me to the eventual purchase of a baritone.

So in '98 I received a new Beneteau baritone. Initially I tuned it quite low for me, A standard, to accommodate song and tune arrangements of the celtoid band I was with. With mandolin and banjo family instruments, keys, and woodwinds, it was useful to get out of their way and move to a lower register whenever possible. Once that band split, I gradually moved the tuning up so that now it's usually at D standard with D'Addario PB medium strings.

It's a bit of a specialty guitar, which perhaps at least partly explains the less standardized tunings and dimensions of the breed. I mean, few players use a baritone exclusively. It seems that the variety helps us create.

I figure if someone can get what they want out of any guitar at any tuning or configuration, good for them.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Am I to assume that what you mean by the pitch that the instrument creates is the pitch that it gives without fingering, say, any of the valves of a trumpet or a sax?

No. The technical requirements needed to generate a particular pitch on the instrument, on any instrument, are not relevant. I am speaking to the relationship between an instrument's generated pitch (however than is accomplished on that instrument) and the printed note/pitch in standard music notation. This applies to all pitches from the instrument, in a relative sense when compared to pitches created by other instruments.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

No. The technical requirements needed to generate a particular pitch on the instrument, on any instrument, are not relevant. I am speaking to the relationship between an instrument's generated pitch (however than is accomplished on that instrument) and the printed note/pitch in standard music notation. This applies to all pitches from the instrument, in a relative sense when compared to pitches created by other instruments.

Oki, I think that I was unclear. So, similarly to how something is transposed on a guitar by capoing to a fret, so a first position "C" chord played at Capo 2d will sound as a D, changing the key but also allowing something to be played in a different key from the written charts or tab without changing the fingering. So the same fingering on a Bb as opposed to a C will sound different notes as you move up the scale within the key.

I think that I get it without necessarily articulating it well. Learn something new every day. (No, really. Learn something new every day. No one person knows everything worth knowing, so there is always more to know)

Thanks.

[drive-south]

My electric baritone is tuned B-b (Danelectro 29"scale).
My G shaped cowboy chord is a D in this tuning which is pretty useful for many tunes I play.

My Larrivee BT03 baritone is tuned C#-c#. I call this my Leadbelly tuning as his Stella was tuned this way. The Larrivee is 27" and has medium gage strings .013 - .056.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by jim1960

No, he's referring to particular notes.
The frequency for Middle C is 261.63. He's saying that on sheet music written for piano, that note is represented by the C that is one line below the treble staff as shown in this picture..


And he's saying that on sheet music written for guitar, that same note/frequency is represented by the C that is just to the right in the top half of the picture.

I am not sure that you understood the questions that I was asking. But I thank you for trying to answer nevertheless. I was trying to understand the concept of a transposing instrument.

Although...

I knew that the center of the piano is at middle C; C4 @ 261.63. So you are saying that the guitar is represented by C5 @ 523.25? Even though a C chord sounded in 1st position is a C2, while a C on the 5th string is a C3 and on the 2nd string an octave higher a C4. At least if my tuner is to be believed.

Or am I overthinking this...?

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

I am not sure that you understood the questions that I was asking. But I thank you for trying to answer nevertheless. I was trying to understand the concept of a transposing instrument.

You seemed to be having trouble with this part of his answer so I was addressing only that.

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Although...

I knew that the center of the piano is at middle C; C4 @ 261.63. So you are saying that the guitar is represented by C5 @ 523.25? Even though a C chord sounded in 1st position is a C2, while a C on the 5th string is a C3 and on the 2nd string an octave higher a C4. At least if my tuner is to be believed.

Or am I overthinking this...?

The point is the pitch/frequency of any given note doesn't change. That part is constant. How that pitch/frequency is represented on sheet music for any particular instrument is what changes. In the case of guitar sheet music and piano sheet music, the notes being represented on the sheet music are an octave apart when played.

Consider this...
A piccolo player, for example, plays notes that would be found at the far right on a piano keyboard. The highest note on a piccolo is 4 octaves above middle C. Try imagine how that would look on treble clef sheet music if middle C was represented by the note written on line below the staff. Sheet music for a piccolo would be impossible to read easily if it were written in a way that represented the notes the same as where you find them on a piano. So the notes are adjusted so they can fall more on the lines rather than way over the lines.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Oki, I think that I was unclear. So, similarly to how something is transposed on a guitar by capoing to a fret, so a first position "C" chord played at Capo 2d will sound as a D, changing the key but also allowing something to be played in a different key from the written charts or tab without changing the fingering. So the same fingering on a Bb as opposed to a C will sound different notes as you move up the scale within the key.

I think that I get it without necessarily articulating it well. Learn something new every day. (No, really. Learn something new every day. No one person knows everything worth knowing, so there is always more to know)

Thanks.

I think the main point is instruments are deemed transposed relative to standard music notation if the pitches/notes being read and played have different fundamental frequencies. C is simply deemed the starting point for comparison between or among instruments. From a different perspective — instruments are deemed transposed relative to each other when each of the two players play the same pitch/note as written in standard music notation and the pitches heard have different fundamental frequencies.

This has been around for hundreds of years. It's an artifact.

Take a look at the written scores for a orchestra or big band jazz ensemble, specifically by comparing individual scores for a C instrument and a Bb instrument.

Take a look here:

https://www3.northern.edu/wieland/th...al/trans_1.htm