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  #31  
Old 08-28-2014, 12:22 PM
Ramesses Ramesses is offline
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Originally Posted by tamiller1952 View Post
I think an expressed warranty is a moral and ethical obligation. I don't see how you can call it anything else. It's also a legal obligation but that doesn't exclude the other two.
Like you posted, it is stated on the warranty that you pay the shipping costs. So the moral and ethical issue would be on you.
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  #32  
Old 08-28-2014, 12:24 PM
littlewing6283 littlewing6283 is offline
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some companies step up. Fender Custom Shop payed for my shipping to them and back. It was expedited shipping as well.
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  #33  
Old 08-28-2014, 12:27 PM
tamiller1952 tamiller1952 is offline
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Originally Posted by bizango1 View Post
Manufacturers can't control where we choose to live. If they included shipping for warranty repairs they'd have to plan for worst case as if all owners lived on the other side of the country from the factory and then we'd all pay higher prices to purchase the guitars. We'd all be paying up front for warranty shipping while most of us would never need warranty service and the mfr's would keep most of the built-in shipping fees as extra margin dollars.
I had a McIlroy shipped from Ireland. The cost was very little more than from here to the west Coast, in fact it might be cheaper depending on the carrier. Assuming that cost of shipping was $400 and one in 10 had to be returned for warranty (both ridiculous figures) it would only add $40 to the price of each guitar.
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  #34  
Old 08-28-2014, 12:28 PM
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devellis devellis is offline
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I think they charge shipping because they can. From their perspective, it ups the ante for a warranty claim. You have to cross a certain threshold of dissatisfaction to be willing to shell out to ship a guitar for warranty work. If the companies didn't do this, they might wind up with more warranty claims and thus higher operating expenses, which would be passed on to the buyers.

I recently bought a king-size mattress from Costco. Although they don't have their own delivery service, they paid a shipper to deliver it and put it in place. If I wanted to return it, they'd accept it no questions asked and they would pay to have it picked up. But they're more the exception than the rule. Also, I suspect that the mattress business is a lot more competitive than the guitar business, so they have to go the extra mile. Apparently, guitar companies don't have to pay for returns to be shipped in order to sell their products.
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  #35  
Old 08-28-2014, 12:34 PM
tamiller1952 tamiller1952 is offline
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Originally Posted by Ramesses View Post
Like you posted, it is stated on the warranty that you pay the shipping costs. So the moral and ethical issue would be on you.
I was disagreeing with the idea that a warranty isn't a moral or ethical obligation. Implied warranties are indeed moral and ethical obligations, but not legal. Express warranties are all three.

I did pay the shipping and I'll pay the return, I just question the fairness of that given that the guitar was probably defective from the factory.

It's a fine instrument in every way and I would have paid for the repair too, although I knew it wasn't my fault. I wouldn't like it, but I'd live with it.
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  #36  
Old 08-28-2014, 12:38 PM
tamiller1952 tamiller1952 is offline
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Interesting answers so far.

I just wonder how the ones that think it's OK to charge shipping would feel if it was their guitar and they were going to be out some $180 for shipping on a warranty repair for a $5000 retail guitar.

And before we go in circles, I bought it knowing the warranty, knowing the company's policy and reputation, and knowing how much it costs to ship a guitar across the country. Like most owners though, I never expected to have to send it back.
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  #37  
Old 08-28-2014, 12:45 PM
tamiller1952 tamiller1952 is offline
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[QUOTE=devellis;4105882]I think they charge shipping because they can. From their perspective, it ups the ante for a warranty claim. You have to cross a certain threshold of dissatisfaction to be willing to shell out to ship a guitar for warranty work.
QUOTE]

There it is. Best answer so far in my honest opinion.
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  #38  
Old 08-28-2014, 12:54 PM
Ramesses Ramesses is offline
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I think that maybe you don't understand or don't relate to business. Taylor makes 100k or more guitars a year. I'm sure they get many claims every day. Imagine if they decided to reimburse people for shipping. There would be guitars shipped to San Diego and then deemed to be not covered by warranty. The forums would be full of people complaining that they're not paying $100 or whatever to have their broken 114 shipped back to them. Instead its just people complaining about what is plainly written on the warranty and something that is maybe 50/50 on whether people agree with you or not.
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'85 Gibson J30e
'75 Ovation Balladeer
'99 HD28V
'99 Gibson WM-00
'75 Takamine "guild" Jumbo
'46 Harmony Silvertone H700
'12 GS-Mini
'?? Epiphone Dr-212
CSU Rams
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  #39  
Old 08-28-2014, 01:00 PM
Marteenie Marteenie is offline
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In the industry I am in, the majority of times when you pay the shipping to send goods back for warranty service, if it is indeed a warranty issue the manufacturer will pay the shipping back to you. That's just good customer service.

If a manufacturer's warranty issues are so much that shipping costs to return to the customer will cause a big enough decline in their bottom line to have to increase prices, they have bigger problems on their hands.

That being said, if a new instrument is purchased on-line how would the authorized repair depot/dealer feel about working on it? Granted they would (should) be reimbursed by the manufacturer for the warranty repair, but may feel somewhat slighted since they did not sell the instrument. I won't go so far as to say that they would do an inferior job but thankfully I have not had to use the warranty on my instruments even though they were bought from a local shop.
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  #40  
Old 08-28-2014, 01:04 PM
tamiller1952 tamiller1952 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramesses View Post
I think that maybe you don't understand or don't relate to business. Taylor makes 100k or more guitars a year. I'm sure they get many claims every day. Imagine if they decided to reimburse people for shipping. There would be guitars shipped to San Diego and then deemed to be not covered by warranty. The forums would be full of people complaining that they're not paying $100 or whatever to have their broken 114 shipped back to them. Instead its just people complaining about what is plainly written on the warranty and something that is maybe 50/50 on whether people agree with you or not.
I don't think you understand. Nobody is proposing they pay shipping on all returns, only those that are due to defective construction and determined to be warranty issues. You'd be a fool to pay to send a 114 back with a dried out top crack knowing they would reject the warranty.
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  #41  
Old 08-28-2014, 01:05 PM
bohemian bohemian is offline
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"I can't accept the cost factor being the problem since surely the return rate for warranty repair doesn't exceed 1 in 50 guitars. At that rate a price increase of $3 would cover shipping on warranties so it can't be the money. Even if they got back one in 20 guitars for warranty it would only add about $7 to the price of an instrument. "

According to a former Martin head of the warranty and repair dept...(recently
retired) up to 50% of Martins are showing defects. His words, not mine.

A company's warranty expenses are packed into the sale price of ever product sold, equal distribution of expenses to all units, whether they fail or not.

Here is a little story.

Received defective guitar, called seller, ca;lled Martin. Both said play it, it might improve.. what a back crack on day one and a neck set inclrrectly.
I sucked up their pablum. When it got worse after two weeks, I called again. They said , had I not played the guitar they would have sent a UPOS call tag and picked it up no charge. I advised it was them that told me to play it, thus causing me the shipping expense to Nazareth.. about $200 on a new guitar with defects rightr out of the box.

While they were diddling around botching repairs and lying to me.. I received my second custom Martin.. it was obviously defective without even removing it form its case. I remembered what they told me and called the dealer and Martin.. They did send a call tag and the guitar was returned.. turns out so defective could not be repaired and they advised me it was destroyed and another would take 11 months. no thanks.. refund please as I am still waiting for a resolution on the first defective guitar still in their possession.

Morals and contracts have little to do with one another.. as to warranties being a moral issue..
I'll debate that anytime.

In 25 years in the auto biz I have seen more attempted fraud by customers against auto makers than the reverse.

I have been making products self employed for many years. I have had two legitimate claims and dealt with it at zero expense to anyone but myself..
but, I have had two dealers and a dozen customers attempt to claim warranty defect in spite of obvious customer induced damage.
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  #42  
Old 08-28-2014, 01:11 PM
bohemian bohemian is offline
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I have posted lengthy dissertations here and on the UMGF and spoken with Martin Corp and a couple other large instrument makers with my ideas about warranties that would be pioneering in the instrument biz and increase sales and desirability of product, improve customer service and lower warranty expenses... to no avail.

Maufacturers continue to foist the "lifetime limited warranty" on the public which essentially reads.. "our way".

Note that Martin got rid of the "lifetime warranty" long ago and went to the "limited lifetime warranty"

In house they had made another decision to limit neck resets to 20 years.. this was direct to me by phone from one of the last warranty and repair and customer service managers at Martin ( reassigned due to continued overwhelmingness and inability to get it all sorted)

No where is it in writing that the lifetime limited means twenty years,, and for those who bought their Martins when they were still offering the "lifetime warranty"... much as with the OP's situation.. the lifetime warranty was part of a contract between the maker and seller and cannot be re written or nullified. It's a contract.
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  #43  
Old 08-28-2014, 01:17 PM
tamiller1952 tamiller1952 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marteenie View Post
In the industry I am in, the majority of times when you pay the shipping to send goods back for warranty service, if it is indeed a warranty issue the manufacturer will pay the shipping back to you. That's just good customer service.

If a manufacturer's warranty issues are so much that shipping costs to return to the customer will cause a big enough decline in their bottom line to have to increase prices, they have bigger problems on their hands.

That being said, if a new instrument is purchased on-line how would the authorized repair depot/dealer feel about working on it? Granted they would (should) be reimbursed by the manufacturer for the warranty repair, but may feel somewhat slighted since they did not sell the instrument. I won't go so far as to say that they would do an inferior job but thankfully I have not had to use the warranty on my instruments even though they were bought from a local shop.
Good points. This guitar was purchased from a brick and mortar store locally and I didn't bother to contact them about the repair as I didn't think it had anything to do with them and the warranty states that it must be returned to the factory anyway. I called the company, they told me to return it and they'd call when it was received. I shipped it in the original factory box with additional shock padding as requested, overnight express with insurance for the retail value. They got it the next morning. The guitar was registered to me and I have the original receipt so there was no question about whether it was covered. When they received it they called immediately and said it waw obvious the guitar was well cared for, the crack was due to a bad glue joint, everything else was within factory specs and they'd fix it and call me for the shipping payment when it was done in approximately 4 to 5 weeks.

I'm sure they get guitars every day that are dried out, scuffed up, dropped, filed down and adjusted out of tolerance, with owners that demand they pay shipping and fix it for free. That's just not the case here. I've never even suggested to them that they pay shipping, nor argued for free services, etc. I just think it's an unfair policy that could/should be changed.
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  #44  
Old 08-28-2014, 01:21 PM
tamiller1952 tamiller1952 is offline
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[QUOTE=bohemian;4105948
According to a former Martin head of the warranty and repair dept...(recently
retired) up to 50% of Martins are showing defects. His words, not mine.


Morals and contracts have little to do with one another.. as to warranties being a moral issue..
I'll debate that anytime.

.[/QUOTE]

That's amazing that they would have that high of a rate of defects.

Warranties are based upon moral concepts. Debate away.
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  #45  
Old 08-28-2014, 05:24 PM
Nailpicker Nailpicker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiller1952 View Post
On warranty work you don't have the option of taking it to a local luthier.
Yes, I know. My point was that if you don't like paying a couple hundred dollars (probably less) shipping, you would be paying more to have a local luthier make the repairs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiller1952 View Post
The warranty specifically states it must be returned to the manufacturer.
I suspect that differs from manufacturer to manufacturer. Taylor has quite a few regional authorized repair luthiers that can do warranty work. My authorized warranty repair shop is 200 miles from where I live. When I had a potential minor warranty issue (the Taylor rep talked me through how to make the repair myself) on one of my guitars, the person I spoke with on the phone even recommended a local, non-authorized luthier who has a national reputation. Every company approaches things differently.
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