Watch Out, the Bad Guys are Out There (Warning: Long, Long Read)

[ElCamino]

So I love to peruse Craig’s List, thinking one day I’m gonna run across something really cool or valuable for cheap. Low and behold, the day before I’m slated to drive to Orlando, while checking out the Orlando CL, I ran across a custom Gibson Les Paul that looked like it should be in a museum and priced at a fraction of what it should be worth. The abalone inlay alone was enough to put mollusks on the endangered list. Now, green as I am at buying and selling used guitars, the red flags began waving immediately—albeit greatly camouflaged by my excitement that I might pick up an electric holy grail for a song and a dance.

Red Flag No. 1 was that there was only one pic posted in the ad, and a crummy one at that. I could tell by the way the ad was written that the owner didn’t know a ton about guitars, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing and, for the purposes of negotiation, could be a good thing. I emailed for more pics, requesting specific areas of the guitar and asked a few questions. Faster than the speed of Bill Gates’ home wi-fi, I received about 5 emails back with attached images, etc. (Red Flag No. 2) Most of the pics were worse than the first (poor quality camera I was told) and virtually none of the questions I asked were answered. (Red Flag Nos. 3 & 4).

Undaunted, I went back and forth via email and then on to texting. I learned that the woman I was dealing with had placed the ad for her husband who is not cyberly sophisticated, that they needed the money for truck repairs, that she was currently in Daytona Beach on business and lived with her husband in Longwood (just north of Orlando) that the guitar was mint and virtually never played because they didn’t want to risk damaging it, that the guitar was made in the Gibson Nashville factory in 2000 (which checked out on the Gibson site where you can enter serial numbers), that I could communicate with the husband directly but that texting was preferred as the cell reception in Longwood is bad (which, having lived in Orlando, I knew wasn’t true), that they’d be willing to take $500 less than the already “to good to be true” advertised price but that was as low as they’d go because they have a friend who owns a pawn shop who has been offering that much for years and thus far they had refused to sell, yada, yada, yada. And throughout the morning, additional unsolicited emails and texts would ping in with attachments of pics of various pieces of “authenticating” paperwork, etc. (Red Flags 86-123)

So, if I was reading this, I’d be thinking, “Dude, there are so many things wrong with this deal, if you couldn’t see them by this point, you almost deserved to get taken.”

I finally texted Bethann Miller and her husband Brandon to please cease communicating, as I had to get to work in order to afford buying their guitar and that I would call them upon arrival to Orlando. I didn’t start working just then, however (sorry boss). I started digging. Maybe it wasn’t any one particular red flag, but the bazillions of them all bunched together flapping across my face like open-handed slaps urging me to “wake up, Stupid.”

I Googled everything I could about Beth and Brandon and the Les Paul and couldn’t find a heck of a lot. But what I could gather didn’t add up. Even the home they said they lived in, for when I wanted to see the guitar in person, according to Orange County tax records, is owned by someone with another name. “They probably rent,” I thought.

Then I Googled something like, “Am I buying a bogus Les Paul?” Thank goodness for the communities of honest and helpful enthusiasts of various guitar types and brands—folks like YOU on this forum. Some guy online actually purchased a counterfeit Chinese Gibson Les Paul on purpose, posted side-by-side pics of a similar authentic Les Paul and the knockoff, and noted the tell-tale signs. While I’m no expert, I’m certain the holy grail Gibson in question was a fake. (FYI the serial number on the example online bogus Les Paul referenced just above—stamped into the wood on the back of the headstock—checked out on the Gibson site just like my holy grail counterfeit, which means the bad guys even have the period- and sometimes model-correct serial numbers too.)

I texted Beth that she had what was likely a Chinese knockoff and urged her to take down her CL ad, giving her the benefit of the doubt, however unlikely it was that she and her husband, the second owners, had been taken and didn’t know it. At least an hour went by with no response, quite a contrast from our previous communications. Finally I received a “Thank you.” That’s it. Nothing to indicate their surprise or that perhaps I was mistaken, etc. No typical barrage of emails with epic-length messages like before. Whatever the circumstances, these folks knew the guitar wasn’t authentic and were trying to sell it as one.

My response to “Thank you,” was “Take it down off CL or I invite an officer from the Orlando Metropolitan Bureau of Investigation with whom I went to high school to verify its authenticity. Over a grand, which I believe is a felony.” (All BS, of course. I have no such friend and have no idea of the dollar amount constituting a felony vs. a misdemeanor.) The ad was gone in a few minutes.

Anyhoo, if you’ve read all the way down to here, thank you. Now go outside or play your guitar or something. Too much Interweb and no other forms of play make Jack a dull boy. But my real point is to remind folks to be sure to do your due-diligence and don’t let your excitement or greed or whatever get the best of your nose when you smell a rat. That rat smelled like my Martin OM-15 Hog for a little while there, and I tend to be pretty skeptical about most things.

Phew!

[fazool]

I use a web crawler called searchtempest. It searches every CL in the country, so you can really do a nationwide CL search. When looking for obsucre things I use that.

I came across the exact same type of story I think it was in Minneapolis.

Tell tale sign for me is that the author always says they are not the owner but posting it for someone else.

[Transylvania]

Good for you. These stories are usually written by persons who saw the red flags, but went ahead anyway.

[GSM]

Caveat Emptor - it goes without saying on Craigslist.

[Bluside]

Nice job on doing your homework and research. There are quite a few of these counterfeit LPs on Craigslist these days. Most folks would fall for it.

How are you enjoying your new Martins?

[ElCamino]

Amazing guitars. Previous owner apparently took great care if them.

[soao]

Tell tale sign for me is that the author always says they are not the owner but posting it for someone else.


yep

[Ramesses]

I'm always shopping for guitars on cl and ebay. A fair percentage of the time I recognize the picture as being lifted directly from an ebay listing.

[fuman]

In the DC area, there's a scam where they run an ad on CL that's seriously, but not insanely, underpriced. Then they want you to e-mail them at a posted e-mail address. Then they have your e-mail. That's all it is. I "missed out" on an ES-175 selling for $1200. Then I noticed a couple similar ads. Caveat emptor.

[Rodger]

Thanks for posting. I never look at C List or eBay. Way too many scam artists out there. And, too many horror stories.

Fortunately, I have everything I need guitar-related in over 40 years of purchasing. Anything I get now is just icing on the cake.

That said, I have purchased 3 items off of guitar forums (2 from AGF, 1 from GearPage)... an acoustic, an electric and an amp... in the last two years. All transactions went smoothly, the stuff was "as advertised" or even better.

[Ramesses]

I've bought a ton of guitars off of craigslist. The only time I ever had a problem is one guy tried to sell me a martin that was originally a lefty. He had switched the pickguard and the strings, but there was still a little bit of a mismatch where the old pickguard hadn't aged to the same color yet. Everyone has been either extremely friendly to courteously ambivalent to the transaction. Regardless of whether the guitar sold or not.

[scottishrogue]

ElCamino, enjoyed your story and commend you for sharing it. I have purchased most of my guitars online, but I too, do a fair amount of research. I use eBay for my purchases, as it's pretty easy to get a refund if all communication is in writing, providing the seller mislead you or had inaccurate information in his ad.

I ask a lot of "off-the-wall" questions, mostly to find out if the seller is knowledgeable about guitars, and then slip in a few questions about the neck, the action, the finish, and even the strings they use. I try to find out why they want to sell the guitar, just to see how they respond. I can usually spot a fake if the photos are clear, particularly Martin fakes. Fuzzy photos are always a BIG RED FLAG for me, or if they don't provide photos of certain parts, like the neck joint.

So far, I've been lucky, but I have to do my homework.

Glen

[Aaron Smith]

With few exceptions, if something appears to be too good to be true, it probably is.

[joeguam]

Originally Posted by fazool

I use a web crawler called searchtempest.

This is good, but someone suggested http://www.searchcraigslist.org/ to me and I like this a lot better. It's much easier.

[DjFuzzyMcPickle]

Originally Posted by fazool

I use a web crawler called searchtempest. It searches every CL in the country, so you can really do a nationwide CL search. When looking for obsucre things I use that.

I came across the exact same type of story I think it was in Minneapolis.

Tell tale sign for me is that the author always says they are not the owner but posting it for someone else.

You are correct Fazool it was Minneapolis and actually a few other cities. almost the exact same stories but with les pauls, martins and several other high end guitars. Specifically 3-4 different makes, models I believe.