Vintage tortoise picks?

[psychojohn]

As a kid and to this day I regularly see box turtles crossing the road or on my proprerty. Not an endangered species. Why not use their shells to make picks similar to tortoise ? Any one doing this ? Would they sound similar ?

John

[bancika]

Originally Posted by psychojohn

As a kid and to this day I regularly see box turtles crossing the road or on my proprerty. Not an endangered species. Why not use their shells to make picks similar to tortoise ? Any one doing this ? Would they sound similar ?

John

I read somewhere that they are not the same at all, softer and flaky. Was also hoping that it would work, I could potentially get some of it.

[brucefulton]

Where can he purchase vintage authentic tortoise picks? From a private seller, since commercial sales are prohibited and sites such as eBay refuse to handle the listings. It will be up the buyer to determine whether the seller is actually offering legal pre-cites picks and whether the labels or other documentation are genuine.

What's a fair price? Since commercial and international trade is prohibited and since domestic private sales outlets refuse to handle these transactions, there is no standardized way to establish a going price. Further, since the private market is flooded with untraceable fakes and illegally traded stocks, any price needs to take the resulting black market into account when attempting to establish a price for genuine documented stock.

[kydave]

Originally Posted by brucefulton

The OP asked, "Where can I legally purchase vintage authentic tortoise picks? What's a fair price to pay for them if I can find them? "

And your answer is "Yes?"

I don't actually see either question answered in five pages of this thread.

But I will answer them.

Where can he purchase vintage authentic tortoise picks? From a private seller, since commercial sales are prohibited and sites such as eBay refuse to handle the listings. It will be up the buyer to determine whether the seller is actually offering legal pre-cites picks and whether the labels or other documentation are genuine.

What's a fair price? Since commercial and international trade is prohibited and since domestic private sales outlets refuse to handle these transactions, there is no standardized way to establish a going price. Further, since the private market is flooded with untraceable fakes and illegally traded stocks, any price needs to take the resulting black market into account when attempting to establish a price for genuine documented stock.

And an antique dealer is not a commercial seller? I've seen this said a few time "commercial ... trade prohibited". Commercial trade in the context of legal antiques is not prohibited. Commercial trade of a legally sellable piece of tortoise shell is not prohibited.

Originally Posted by brucefulton

What's a fair price? Since commercial and international trade is prohibited and since domestic private sales outlets refuse to handle these transactions, there is no standardized way to establish a going price. Further, since the private market is flooded with untraceable fakes and illegally traded stocks, any price needs to take the resulting black market into account when attempting to establish a price for genuine documented stock.

Commercial trade of pre-ban material in the US is not prohibited. There are some restrictions, so with places such as Ebay find it much easier just to disallow it.

[brucefulton]

Originally Posted by psychojohn

As a kid and to this day I regularly see box turtles crossing the road or on my proprerty. Not an endangered species. Why not use their shells to make picks similar to tortoise ? Any one doing this ? Would they sound similar ?

John

For the same reason that Kangaroo teeth or Bison horn is no substitute for Ivory. Unfortunately, Hawksbill tortoise shell, like elephant ivory, is singularly well suited for the purposes to which it has been put. But it is also true that although traditionalists refuse to acknowledge it, materials are available, both natural and synthetic, that equal or surpass the properties of these traditional materials.

I defy anyone to listen to any recording of a guitar and identify, blind, whether it was recorded with a tortoise shell pick or some other material.

These myths persist at the expense of natural resources that should have been abandoned for commercial trade decades ago. At this point, it's a matter of whether the species at risk will outlast old guitarists who believe these myths. I'm not sure the species will win. Sad.

[brucefulton]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

Commercial trade of pre-ban material in the US is not prohibited. There are some restrictions, so with places such as Ebay find it much easier just to disallow it.

This is a gray area. In general, commercial trade or re-purposing can be legally problematic. See http://pickcollecting.presspublisher...l-guitar-picks specifically with regard to picks. Should a store, for example, set up a bin with tortoise shell picks and claim they are pre-cites, they would almost certainly entertain a visit by one or more federal agencies if it came to their attention or there was a complaint. Private trade is usually (but not always) left alone. As a practical matter, commercial trade other than incidental trade such as flea shops, is dead.

[kydave]

Originally Posted by brucefulton

The OP asked, "Where can I legally purchase vintage authentic tortoise picks? What's a fair price to pay for them if I can find them? "

And your answer is "Yes?"

I don't actually see either question answered in five pages of this thread.

But I will answer them.

Where can he purchase vintage authentic tortoise picks? From a private seller, since commercial sales are prohibited and sites such as eBay refuse to handle the listings. It will be up the buyer to determine whether the seller is actually offering legal pre-cites picks and whether the labels or other documentation are genuine.

What's a fair price? Since commercial and international trade is prohibited and since domestic private sales outlets refuse to handle these transactions, there is no standardized way to establish a going price. Further, since the private market is flooded with untraceable fakes and illegally traded stocks, any price needs to take the resulting black market into account when attempting to establish a price for genuine documented stock.

I'm curious as to how what your "I will answer" says that wasn't materially covered in the post I put up a while back:

1. I'd not recommend trying it UNLESS you have a very reputable antique dealer friend. Too easy to get burned or in legal trouble.
2. IF you can feel comfortable with # 1, whatever the traffic will bear. Antiques don't come cheap.
3. OR you can buy a genuine TS antique piece of whatever works size-wise from a reputable dealer and fabricate your own perfectly legal to own, use and enjoy - but not sell - pick. Safest route.

[brucefulton]

Originally Posted by kydave

And an antique dealer is not a commercial seller? I've seen this said a few time "commercial ... trade prohibited". Commercial trade in the context of legal antiques is not prohibited. Commercial trade of a legally sellable piece of tortoise shell is not prohibited.

As long as you have documentation that it is legally sellable. As a practical matter, commercial trade is dead. Ask Gibson about current federal enforcement of CITES regulated resources.

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by brucefulton

These myths persist at the expense of natural resources that should have been abandoned for commercial trade decades ago. At this point, it's a matter of whether the species at risk will outlast old guitarists who believe these myths. I'm not sure the species will win. Sad.

Well said. People always seem to have a selfish desire for that which they can't have. Even discussion of this topic is no small way keeps the market active.

Originally Posted by brucefulton

This is a gray area. In general, commercial trade or re-purposing can be legally problematic. See http://pickcollecting.presspublisher...l-guitar-picks specifically with regard to picks. Should a store, for example, set up a bin with tortoise shell picks and claim they are pre-cites, they would almost certainly entertain a visit by one or more federal agencies if it came to their attention or there was a complaint. Private trade is usually (but not always) left alone. As a practical matter, commercial trade other than incidental trade such as flea shops, is dead.

I agree with much of that, except the gray area part. It's actually fairly clear.

That aside, "problematic" is not the same as "prohibited". It may indeed be complicated, but it is not prohibited outright as you previously stated.

Originally Posted by brucefulton

As long as you have documentation that it is legally sellable. As a practical matter, commercial trade is dead. Ask Gibson about current federal enforcement of CITES regulated resources.

Gibson's problem is a whole other can of worms, but that was related to Lacey violations, not CITES.

[HHP]

From a purely practical standpoint, why would someone want to commit to using something that they will ultimately have to switch away from anyway. A pick is so important to a flatpicker that changing can be a real challenge. Also, the way people get a case of the vapors when you tell them you paid $35 for a pick, they will go into instant cardiac arrest over the price of even poached tortoiseshell.

[brucefulton]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

Gibson's problem is a whole other can of worms, but that was related to Lacey violations, not CITES.

The two are rather inseparable. See http://eia-global.org/campaigns/fore...acey-and-cites

[Drubbing]

I think it's time to call it done when people bring the Arms discussion into it, and quote that deliberately misunderstood and perenially misappropriated clause about rights to ownership.

[Don Lampson]

Originally Posted by brucefulton

Well, yeah. What I said. Including the part about all you posted above was moot. Did you actually read what I wrote? And what about bringing it back to the topic at hand, with my followup comments?

Moderator, time to call this thread done.

If you don't like the way a thread is turning just stop posting. Why try to get a moderator to shut it down? Other posters are enjoying and gaining information from the thread......


Don