Vintage tortoise picks?

[flaggerphil]

Originally Posted by brucefulton

With or without the fake counterfeit stickers?

So, if they're "fake counterfeit", does that mean they're actually real?

[brucefulton]

Originally Posted by flaggerphil

So, if they're "fake counterfeit", does that mean they're actually real?

Quite possibly, in that they may be real tortoise shell that is freshly and illegally manufactured with laundered stock that is both counterfeit ( new stock represented as old pre-cites) accompanied by fake authenticated labels or other provenance.

[kydave]

Originally Posted by brucefulton

Quite possibly, in that they may be real tortoise shell that is freshly and illegally manufactured with laundered stock that is both counterfeit ( new stock represented as old pre-cites) accompanied by fake authenticated labels or other provenance.

Or they could be really what they claim to be. Those are from the photo I posted. Why shouldn't someone with the right motivation and funds be able to find them? I'm not suggesting that the OP do that, mind you.

I just bristle at misstatements about legality and them even being out there or not from people who don't seem to understand the regulations.

That's all.

[brucefulton]

Originally Posted by kydave

Or they could be really what they claim to be. Those are from the photo I posted. Why shouldn't someone with the right motivation and funds be able to find them? I'm not suggesting that the OP do that, mind you.

I just bristle at misstatements about legality and them even being out there or not from people who don't know what they're talking about.

That's all.

Bristle all you like. There are a few genuine pre-cites picks out there. And a whole boatload of fakes and counterfeits. Can you tell the difference between a fake, a counterfeit or a genuine pre-cites pick? With what provenance? Can you provide a source of legal pre-cites hawksbill shell picks with the documentation sufficient to allow them to be sold interstate and internationally? What documentation would that be? An easily faked sticker pasted on the pick? If you can document a misstatement I've made, post the details. If you want to take issue with the statements of others, reply to them, not me.

[kydave]

1. Where can I legally purchase vintage authentic tortoise picks?
2. What's a fair price to pay for them if I can find them?

1. I'd not recommend trying it UNLESS you have a very reputable antique dealer friend. Too easy to get burned or in legal trouble.
2. IF you can feel comfortable with # 1, whatever the traffic will bear. Antiques don't come cheap.
3. OR you can buy a genuine TS antique piece of whatever works size-wise from a reputable dealer and fabricate your own perfectly legal to own, use and enjoy - but not sell - pick. Safest route.

[royd]

Originally Posted by brucefulton

There are a few genuine pre-cites picks out there. And a whole boatload of fakes and counterfeits. Can you tell the difference between a fake, a counterfeit or a genuine pre-cites pick?

It is a fairly simple question... unless you've owned the pick since pre-CITES days, fashioned it from a TS comb you've had since pre-CITES days, or have received it as a gift from your grandfather who had it since then, there simply is no way to be 100% sure whether it is legal/ethical. Even with the most stringent research, you cannot be sure. And I do buy the argument that even purchasing legal TS picks increases the likelihood of illegal picks which results in the death of turtles which could contribute to extinction.

FWIW, I've been playing guitar since '63 and I don't think I've ever owned a TS pick and I'm not sure that I ever played with one. I guess I have but if I did, it didn't impress me enough to make me remember it. I have played with many other materials including ivory picks made from old piano key tops which BTW, I would never purchase or do again. Certainly different materials sound different and I'm sure there are many of you who can tell the difference between the real thing and even the best modern replacement materials. Still the key is different, but not necessarily better. My favorites? Bone or Wegen.

to the OP... I have no idea what one would pay for a TS pick. I'd like to try one someday, but I would not own one.

[jdinco]

A friend gave me a pick a couple months ago that he said was TS, when I stated that they are illegal, he said he was told that Mexicans eat turtles and toss the shells, and that someone was collecting the shells and making the picks. True??? Who knows. Somehow I doubt it. He said there are more picks available for $35. each, I'm not buying in case they are illegal and I won't give out the source. The one he gave me was the size of a BC TAD-40 and about 2.0 thick. It's a very heavy pick that sounds NOTHING like my Blue Chip. Not sure if it's the thickness or the material. It's very mellow sounding, the BC is much brighter in comparison. I do like the sound a lot.

[Jim.S]

Post Cites.



Jim

[brucefulton]

The statement is simply that there are still a few legal pre-cites picks out there. Here is a credible source: http://pickcollecting.presspublisher...l-guitar-picks. So this is not an overly broad unverifiable statement.

The question I pose is, can you come up with documentation acceptable to cites inspectors such as customs and F&W agents that is acceptable provenance? According to the article cited above, no. Can you do better?

[brucefulton]

Originally Posted by royd

It is a fairly simple question... unless you've owned the pick since pre-CITES days, fashioned it from a TS comb you've had since pre-CITES days, or have received it as a gift from your grandfather who had it since then, there simply is no way to be 100% sure whether it is legal/ethical. Even with the most stringent research, you cannot be sure. And I do buy the argument that even purchasing legal TS picks increases the likelihood of illegal picks which results in the death of turtles which could contribute to extinction.

FWIW, I've been playing guitar since '63 and I don't think I've ever owned a TS pick and I'm not sure that I ever played with one. I guess I have but if I did, it didn't impress me enough to make me remember it. I have played with many other materials including ivory picks made from old piano key tops which BTW, I would never purchase or do again. Certainly different materials sound different and I'm sure there are many of you who can tell the difference between the real thing and even the best modern replacement materials. Still the key is different, but not necessarily better. My favorites? Bone or Wegen.

to the OP... I have no idea what one would pay for a TS pick. I'd like to try one someday, but I would not own one.

You make my point.

[kydave]

The question I pose is, can you come up with documentation acceptable to cites inspectors such as customs and F&W agents that is acceptable provenance? According to the article cited above, no. Can you do better?

If one is not selling, nor traveling internationally, one need not worry about the above. I do neither.

[brucefulton]

Originally Posted by kydave

If one is not selling, nor traveling internationally, one need not worry about the above. I do neither.

One with ethical concerns may find one's conscience concerned about the above, irrespective of the international treaty implications and local legality. Given that there are some legal pre-cites picks out there (which you seem to find wild speculation but for which there is good evidence), what will it take you, or the hypothetical one, or the op, to convince yourself, or the hypothetical one, or the op, that the source is indeed a legal one?

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by brucefulton

Bristle all you like. There are a few genuine pre-cites picks out there.

And people who go looking for 'legal' ones are still directly encouraging the existence of whatever illegal trade for new ones; it ensures the market is still viable. So there's no ethical reason to go looking for them.

[DaveKell]

A few years back there was another thread like this and I mentioned I had a grandfathered TS pick that was a Christmas present from almost 30 years ago. I carried it in my wallet all those years to have ready in case a jam materialized. I offered to sell it for the first person who would produce twenty bucks for it and was swamped with requests. I took first in line and they now have my pick and I WANT IT BACK!!! No other material gives you the snap off the strings when flatpicking TS does. It is a physical pick to play with requiring grip strength because they are like a tree limb in strength but produce a very distinctive sound no other material can adequately duplicate.

My wife actually bought me a bag of about ten that year. Some were more like a fingernail and thin, others had bumpy textures on them. The one I sold was perfectly shaped like what you think of when you say guitar pick. The old Texas brothers who ran the music store where my wife got them told her to tell me to periodically rub them across my nose to absorb skin oils to make them last. It worked. I thought that pick was never going to wear out. If the purchaser is reading this I'll give ya $50 for my old pick back!

[M Sarad]

I am on TS # 4. I match picks to my guitars and Mandolin. The Blue Chip sounds best on the Mando. Tortoise on the Dread and OM. I reserve the Clayton when I need more power and punch, and stick to Fender picks on electric.