Vintage tortoise picks?

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

CITES is an international agreement. Domestic laws cover the use and restrictions within any nation. It is not illegal to repurpose TS and sell it in the US, but there are some restrictions. Not sure about the UK or other places.

I'm afraid you're wrong and CITES trumps domestic legislation.

[kydave]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

I'm afraid you're wrong and CITES trumps domestic legislation.

CITES most definitely does NOT trump domestic legislation for matters within the U.S.

That's as absurd as claiming that a U.N. resolution or any international treaty controls law within the U.S., which it does not.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

I'm afraid you're wrong and CITES trumps domestic legislation.

I'm referring to domestic sales.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by kydave

CITES most definitely does NOT trump domestic legislation for matters within the U.S.

That's as absurd as claiming that a U.N. resolution or any international treaty controls law within the U.S., which it does not.

Of course it does, otherwise what would be the point of CITES if each nation had its own interpretation of the legislation?
Every nation which has become signatory to the convention is bound by its regulations, and is subject to sanctions should those regulations be violated. You can't become a signatory to a treaty and then start making up your own rules.
Furthermore membership of the UN subjects the signatory to the Charter to the observance of all its rules, regulations and laws-including the Geneva Conventions. These absolutely override domestic law, and the USA is no exception.

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...ngered-species

CITES by definition (and name) seeks to shape international trade, not domestic sales. It's all in the published literature.

From www.cites.org

CITES (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) is an international agreement between governments. Its aim is to ensure that international trade in specimens of wild animals and plants does not threaten their survival.

CITES is an international agreement to which States (countries) adhere voluntarily. States that have agreed to be bound by the Convention ('joined' CITES) are known as Parties. Although CITES is legally binding on the Parties – in other words they have to implement the Convention – it does not take the place of national laws. Rather it provides a framework to be respected by each Party, which has to adopt its own domestic legislation to ensure that CITES is implemented at the national level.

[kmcmichael]

I have no use for TS. Maybe it was the one I tried. However, if it made some sort of noticeable improvement in tone, I suppose I would have one regardless of the CITIES agreement. It is one of thousands of unenforceable laws that seem to be reproducing at an alarming rate. I do not know what the answer is regarding the hawksbill, nor do I know if they have left the endangered list.

[kydave]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Of course it does, otherwise what would be the point of CITES if each nation had its own interpretation of the legislation?
Every nation which has become signatory to the convention is bound by its regulations, and is subject to sanctions should those regulations be violated. You can't become a signatory to a treaty and then start making up your own rules.
Furthermore membership of the UN subjects the signatory to the Charter to the observance of all its rules, regulations and laws-including the Geneva Conventions. These absolutely override domestic law, and the USA is no exception.

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...ngered-species

I disagree.

An international treaty does NOT necessarily affect domestic laws.

[Jason Cole]

Originally Posted by jseth

I am old enough that the picks EVERYONE was using were tortoise shell picks... and I can tell you, they weren't "all that and a bag of chips"!

Yup. A wealthy collector friend of mine "loaned" me a half dozen for a few months. I thought they were decent, but they weren't better than my good ol' Fender heavies, Tortex Blues, or Claytons, or Dunlop Ultex, or any number of other variations on a theme.

It was just a different option, not necessarily better.

I think the Dunlop Ultex comes closest to TS in terms of feel and dynamics, but the Ultex isn't my first choice in pick. I like the good old celluloid Fender heavy in the 346 shape... Easier to palm for fingerpicking!

Originally Posted by Don Lampson

Most of the best bluegrass pickers today still use genuine TS from what I've seen, and heard?

Sorry, I really don't think so. Someone's been selling you snake oil.

Originally Posted by HHP

The problem is, if there is a desire for the material, someone will try and fill it legally or otherwise. I understand the notion that use and sale of a material from a long dead turtle isn't a problem in itself. The problem is, it develops a mystique that leads others to want it as well and that does lead to poaching today. The fact that the market is underground just makes it easier for the poachers to operate and all they have to do is construct some fake provenance to appear the material is old.

I've made a decision not to desire it and have turned down a few chances to obtain them despite my tendency to be a pick junky. With all the other material out there capable of being a guitar pick, I can find something that works and not have the ethical baggage.

THIS! Tortoise shell makes decent guitar picks but it's not "all that".

In 1930, TS was the only game in town. And the legend was born. In 2014, there are literally dozens of alternatives that are just as good or BETTER.

Originally Posted by HHP

They are not some flatpicking "magic bullet". Even discounting the cost and ethics, I would find them impractical as I have often made changes in terms of thickness and shape to suit my playing as it evolves.

Exactly. Guitar strings used to be made out of animal sinews and cat gut. Now we have better materials.

I can understand curiosity and wanting to "try it", but if any money exchanges hands, it's just bad mojo, and bad mojo is the last thing you want to mix with your muse and creative energies.

It's really not worth it, from any number of perspectives.

[Brick is Red]

CITES affects domestic law only to the extent that each State joined to the treaty shall enact laws in accordance with the framework of the treaty. It's an affirmative obligation.

Also, the treaty's scope is international trade. Domestic trade is not regulated by international treaty. It is regulated by Congress and under the jurisdiction of U.S. Federal courts.

[Larry1701]

There is a guy on ebay who purchases Red Earn turtle shells from a company in California who farm raises them and uses their meat, thus the shell is an unusable byproduct. Since the Red Earn turtle isnt endangered this species isnt on the CITES list, no illegal activity here.

Anyway, the pick isnt magical. In fact, the Tusq picks I bought from Sweetwater at a fraction of the price, produce a far deeper and balanced tone...

[SuperB23]

There's nothing that sounds like a real TS pick to me. I treat my mine more carefully than I do my guitars. They make my guitars sound the best to my ears by far. My guitars can be replaced but the picks can't. I use Blue Chip when I'm playing live because once again they can be replaced.

[Goodallboy]

Originally Posted by HHP

People talk about tortoiseshell like they are all the same. They vary a lot as do the results as a pick. Many are worn down to where you could not get a viable point or edge. They are not some flatpicking "magic bullet". Even discounting the cost and ethics, I would find them impractical as I have often made changes in terms of thickness and shape to suit my playing as it evolves.

Oh, you mean exactly like we evaluate all Martins, Gibsons, etc..

[bohemian]

Tom West
"CLAYTONS.............forever...!!!"

Agreed, he's down the road from me a few miles.

I've owned my share of tortwaz picks..
gimmee Claytons.

[oaitway]

I have a couple that I got from some hippies over a few years that ran the t-shirt franchise at a regional music festival. they said they were made from antique combs. they are so variable it's hard to generalize but I will say one is the best pick I own. the others not so much. my favorite pick was given to me by a former bluegrass boy (passed now) that he made himself. looks like it might be from asbestos siding. the last time I broke out a redbear I lost it without leaving my chair. fender heavy's for me.

[HHP]

Originally Posted by bohemian

Tom West
"CLAYTONS.............forever...!!!"

Agreed, he's down the road from me a few miles.

I've owned my share of tortwaz picks..
gimmee Claytons.

I buy my imprinted picks from them and their work is excellent. Just ordered some new ones.

Rebevel their thick acetals and they are very close to anything you can buy.