Vintage tortoise picks?

[bancika]

Originally Posted by Don Lampson

If you don't like the way a thread is turning just stop posting. Why try to get a moderator to shut it down? Other posters are enjoying and gaining information from the thread......


Don

Enjoying gun talk on a picks topic?

[Teleman52]

Yeah guns should have never been brought up by the person who brought it up

Some people just must insert political statements into everything.

I hope just these gun law comments are deleted and the thread goes on but that's the mods choice I suppose

[Don Lampson]

Originally Posted by bancika

Enjoying gun talk on a picks topic?

I rarely enjoy gun talk here at any time. The topic came up over U.S. Laws, regarding TS picks, vs International Trade Agreements.......

Don

[cary]

Interested in tortoise shell picks? I understand your interest, but Let me save you the trouble.

Once upon a time I was gifted a couple of antique tortoise shell picks from a family friend. They really did sound delightful, but I knew I wouldn't want to be contributing to the loss of turtles in the wild, so I spent a good amount of money and time experimenting with other picks, trying to find a sonic and tactile match.

I am happy to say that to my ears, and fingers, you can get 90% there with a simple and cheap pick made out of horn, and you can get pretty much 100% there by just purchasing a Red Bear.

Now, we all have different ears and fingers, but to me, a Red Bear is as good as it gets when attempting to replicate the sound of TS. Next to the TS picks, I couldn't even hear a difference.

There are all sorts of great picks, and Blue Chips are of course excellent as well, but they don't sound like TS.

Red Bears do.

Good luck!

[mikerofone]

I'll stay out of the legal/ethical conversation and just say as it relates to sound differences between TS and other picks, THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER. It's whatever your ears hear and prefer.

I have TS picks fashioned from antique objects. I hate spending what I spend on them and every now and then I try using the Blue Chip and Wegen picks I have (I have not tried Red Bear...maybe I should) and I always go right back to the TS. My ears hear a difference...TS picks just produce a warmer, more natural sound from my D18V and HD28V. The wegens have a slightly "plastic-y" sound and the Blue Chips have a thinner, harder edged sound.

It's quite likely that no one else would notice the difference but I DO, so that's all that matters to me since 90% of my playing time is for my ears and pleasure only, and 10% for other ears.

[brucefulton]

Originally Posted by Don Lampson

If you don't like the way a thread is turning just stop posting. Why try to get a moderator to shut it down? Other posters are enjoying and gaining information from the thread......


Don

Threads are often locked when they stray into clearly irrelevant discussion, such as arguments about the second amendment in an acoustic guitar forum. I didn't report it, so I hardly tried to get a moderator to shut anything down. And I also tried to pull it back to the relevant topic. But I am suggesting that if we are really going into arguments about the second amendment, locking the thread is standard protocol here.

[JTFoote]

Originally Posted by mikerofone

I'll stay out of the legal/ethical conversation and just say as it relates to sound differences between TS and other picks, THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER. It's whatever your ears hear and prefer.

I have TS picks fashioned from antique objects. I hate spending what I spend on them and every now and then I try using the Blue Chip and Wegen picks I have (I have not tried Red Bear...maybe I should) and I always go right back to the TS. My ears hear a difference...TS picks just produce a warmer, more natural sound from my D18V and HD28V. The wegens have a slightly "plastic-y" sound and the Blue Chips have a thinner, harder edged sound.

It's quite likely that no one else would notice the difference but I DO, so that's all that matters to me since 90% of my playing time is for my ears and pleasure only, and 10% for other ears.

Yes, sir ... I'm right there with you.

Political considerations aside, and sticking strictly to sound and feel ... well-fashioned TS picks made from quality shell have a unique sound, and I've not found anything man-made that approximates it.

That sound is organic to my ears, and superior in tone, IMHO. If that wasn't the case, I'd have put them down, long ago. Maybe the average joe can't hear the difference, but I assure you that I can.

I used to pull out my big box of picks, about twice a year, and carefully evaluate the sound of each, using my favorite guitar, and fresh strings. Assuming that my playing skills were increasing over time, I would try to take a fresh approach to the evaluation, willing to set aside the TS picks if they were "beaten" by other materials, which included several Blue Chip picks, Wegens, Claytons, two kinds of Red Bear picks, hand-beveled cheaper picks, nylon picks, Fender celluloid picks, and V-picks, among others.

I'd narrow it down to the top five, and then start over.

The end result would always be one of the TS picks. Note that this was basically about the tone produced, and the feel through the strings, secondarily. Third would be pick noise.

I probably did this about ten times over a five year period, and after that, I started selling off the more expensive picks, as I didn't see much point in hoarding them for no particular reason. I wasn't using them, so I might as well let them go.

TS picks might not be for everyone. Tastes range the entire gamut, and what works for me obviously might do nothing for you.

Once in a blue moon, I'll start playing with someone new, and if I think they might appreciate what a TS pick can do for them, I'll gift them with one - no monetary exchange. Invariably, they'll notice something audibly different with one, beyond any other material that they've used in the past ... even if I don't necessarily tell them what the pick material is until they've played with it for a while, thinking that it is a just a really nice unbranded celluloid pick.

I recently turned on a friend who hadn't played with a pick for many years, but who wanted to get back into it. He had a bunch of old picks, and was attempting to play with them, and then I gave him one of mine. He used it for about two weeks, and then started asking questions, startled by the tone, clarity, ease of use, tackiness, and speed through the strings. He suspected that it might be TS, but had no way to tell, having never seen one before.

His old Martin has never sounded so good, and he's hanging onto that pick for dear life.

Some of you might think that this was a terrible idea, and that I was doing him a disservice by presenting him with that pick. Others might understand that I gave him a tool, made from a very old antique, and it happened to be a very good one. My guitars are tools; I respect tools the way that my Father taught me, and my TS picks are also that ... tools.

I completely agree that harvesting animals for this purpose is wrong, on all counts. And you'll never catch me trolling ocean waters for a turtle. Poaching is wrong on all levels, and should be halted, whether it's for turtles or big game. But here's a fact -- this material was harvested long before I was born, and mourning about it afterwards does nothing. I might as well use it for something constructive, and I don't regret knowing that it is the best tool for my guitars that I've found. I've become a better musician by adopting it.

I can do nothing to change or stifle the market that is already in place, and has been for over a hundred years. Perhaps many of you feel that a personal ideal and ethical stance will make the ultimate difference, and if so, more power to you. But I'm more realistic than that, and I prefer the best tool for the job that is available to me, and I stick within the legal guidelines of ownership.

Some might find this sort of behavior or mindset repugnant, and I can appreciate that. But as a corollary ... I have never voted in a presidential election either, as I am aware that the popular vote doesn't elect the president ... that power lies in the hands of the Electoral College. One person alone can't change a political process, and neither can abandoning or destroying a TS pick eliminate a market. And from what I have read, which is considerable, picks are not a particularly large area of that overseas market ... and neither are guitar tops and sides the prime reason that rain forests are being defoliated.

Your opinion on this is entirely of your own concern, you are welcome to it, and and any opposition I might post to it is based entirely on my common sense of how the world operates. Whatever that is worth, even if that means very little to those who prefer a "greener" bent.

YMMV, and as always, IMO.

... JT

[Charmed Life Picks]

I bought a bunch of them from McCabe's a long time ago when they were still legal cuz I heard Tony Rice played with them. They sounded fab, but I noticed they became brittle after several years and would eventually shatter.

From what I've heard about Blue Chip and other man-made tortoise shell imitation picks, this is not the case. They don't tend to degrade and shattered with time. At least this is what I've heard.

[brucefulton]

Originally Posted by JTFoote

Yes, sir ... I'm right there with you.

Political considerations aside, and sticking strictly to sound and feel ... well-fashioned TS picks made from quality shell have a unique sound, and I've not found anything man-made that approximates it.

If it's better, it's different. If it's truly different, it's measurable. Are you saying you could listen blindly to a random selection of high quality recordings or live performances and identify, with high and consistent reliability, whether a TS pic was used or not?

[Allen Shadd]

I have several guitars, some sound better with TS, some with Blue Chip. I recently played 5 guitars with 3 different picks- a TS, a Blue Chip, and a Red Bear. My wife had her back to me. She also plays, and in my opinion has a pretty good ear. She chose the TS on one guitar (the same as I did, actually), and the Blue Chip on the other 4.

[brucefulton]

Myth and superstition are killing much of the natural world I love. I will do what I can to fight it. That means challenging assumptions and asking for reasonable evidence of difference and measurability when continued reliance on traditional practices threaten dwindling resources that simply cannot be replaced. It's already too late for many.

For me, the status quo is not acceptable, and I have stuck to the issues, not personalities, in posting what i feel is a valid, supportable and consistent argument for re-evaluating much of which many take for granted as tradition in the musical instrument world, that is counterproductive in the long run.

These occasionally energetic threads constitute only a small fraction of all the threads in this forum and a diversity of opinion should be tolerated as well as challenged. The major instrument manufacturers are changing their practices in recognition of our changing world by using alternative materials and providing choice to educated consumers. So are many players.

Arguing for that change is nothing I am ashamed of or plan on attenuating. If I ever make a post that falls outside of the rules of the forum, you can report it, ignore it, or challenge it.

[Don Lampson]

Originally Posted by JTFoote

Yes, sir ... I'm right there with you.

Political considerations aside, and sticking strictly to sound and feel ... well-fashioned TS picks made from quality shell have a unique sound, and I've not found anything man-made that approximates it.

That sound is organic to my ears, and superior in tone, IMHO. If that wasn't the case, I'd have put them down, long ago. Maybe the average joe can't hear the difference, but I assure you that I can.

I used to pull out my big box of picks, about twice a year, and carefully evaluate the sound of each, using my favorite guitar, and fresh strings. Assuming that my playing skills were increasing over time, I would try to take a fresh approach to the evaluation, willing to set aside the TS picks if they were "beaten" by other materials, which included several Blue Chip picks, Wegens, Claytons, two kinds of Red Bear picks, hand-beveled cheaper picks, nylon picks, Fender celluloid picks, and V-picks, among others.

I'd narrow it down to the top five, and then start over.

The end result would always be one of the TS picks. Note that this was basically about the tone produced, and the feel through the strings, secondarily. Third would be pick noise.

I probably did this about ten times over a five year period, and after that, I started selling off the more expensive picks, as I didn't see much point in hoarding them for no particular reason. I wasn't using them, so I might as well let them go.

TS picks might not be for everyone. Tastes range the entire gamut, and what works for me obviously might do nothing for you.

Once in a blue moon, I'll start playing with someone new, and if I think they might appreciate what a TS pick can do for them, I'll gift them with one - no monetary exchange. Invariably, they'll notice something audibly different with one, beyond any other material that they've used in the past ... even if I don't necessarily tell them what the pick material is until they've played with it for a while, thinking that it is a just a really nice unbranded celluloid pick.

I recently turned on a friend who hadn't played with a pick for many years, but who wanted to get back into it. He had a bunch of old picks, and was attempting to play with them, and then I gave him one of mine. He used it for about two weeks, and then started asking questions, startled by the tone, clarity, ease of use, tackiness, and speed through the strings. He suspected that it might be TS, but had no way to tell, having never seen one before.

His old Martin has never sounded so good, and he's hanging onto that pick for dear life.

Some of you might think that this was a terrible idea, and that I was doing him a disservice by presenting him with that pick. Others might understand that I gave him a tool, made from a very old antique, and it happened to be a very good one. My guitars are tools; I respect tools the way that my Father taught me, and my TS picks are also that ... tools.

I completely agree that harvesting animals for this purpose is wrong, on all counts. And you'll never catch me trolling ocean waters for a turtle. Poaching is wrong on all levels, and should be halted, whether it's for turtles or big game. But here's a fact -- this material was harvested long before I was born, and mourning about it afterwards does nothing. I might as well use it for something constructive, and I don't regret knowing that it is the best tool for my guitars that I've found. I've become a better musician by adopting it.

I can do nothing to change or stifle the market that is already in place, and has been for over a hundred years. Perhaps many of you feel that a personal ideal and ethical stance will make the ultimate difference, and if so, more power to you. But I'm more realistic than that, and I prefer the best tool for the job that is available to me, and I stick within the legal guidelines of ownership.

Some might find this sort of behavior or mindset repugnant, and I can appreciate that. But as a corollary ... I have never voted in a presidential election either, as I am aware that the popular vote doesn't elect the president ... that power lies in the hands of the Electoral College. One person alone can't change a political process, and neither can abandoning or destroying a TS pick eliminate a market. And from what I have read, which is considerable, picks are not a particularly large area of that overseas market ... and neither are guitar tops and sides the prime reason that rain forests are being defoliated.

Your opinion on this is entirely of your own concern, you are welcome to it, and and any opposition I might post to it is based entirely on my common sense of how the world operates. Whatever that is worth, even if that means very little to those who prefer a "greener" bent.

YMMV, and as always, IMO.

... JT

Although I vote every election, you express my exact feelings about TS picks a lot better than I could. Right on!

Don

[pfflyer55]

I do not use or have I used T.S. picks. I only know of one person who uses one and that one is a Gibson pick he obtained from a customer of his after he did some repair on an original Gibson mandolin. He is a luthier and I will not name him. He was my guitar instructor for a few months and used it exclusively and it seemed like any other pick to me as a listener, but he was the beholder and he said it just felt and sounded better than any other pick he uses.
I am interested in playing one someday just to find out what the interest is with them. I am a newbie and find that the ultex pick is by far the best pick without added noise when I strum. They all make noise to some extent, the tortex picks are horriblly loud and make a gritty sound. Nylon picks sound rubbery and dampen the string. But the Jim Dunlop celluloid picks and the fender celluloid picks are just fine to me and I grip them without them twisting in my fingers. Still Ultex .60 by Dunlop is my pick of choice.

"There's no need for argument, there's no argument at all."

[justonwo]

This thread has been heavily edited for multiple Rule #1 infractions and political discussion. I believe this thread has run its course, so I'm locking it.