Apollo Twin and Garageband

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

BTW, in spite of any of these differences - caused by bugs or summing, or whatever, I seriously doubt that switching DAWs is suddenly going to make a direct pickup recording that sounds bad in one DAW sound great in another. We're talking *very* subtle differences here, not "it's a whole different guitar sound" level of difference. I'd look for things that have a bigger impact.

No - way too subtle. They are the kinds of differences that you don't notice without very detailed listening tests. Definitely nothing to lose sleep over. You'd probably get better results from a better EQ plugin than a new DAW in that case.

Just use what you have & make music.

[Doug Young]

Hmm, I don't think anyone was arguing :-) I certainly wasn't trying to. You asked specifically me a question, and I tried to answer.

I think we're all trying to help Dory with his issue, which just to circle back, is, if I understand right, that he plays the guitar, monitoring somehow while recording, and when he plays the recording back, it sounds different. There could be a ton of reasons why, and it's pretty hard to diagnose in little text boxes without being there. By all means, if Dory can easily try a different DAW, it's worth a shot, just as a way to diagnose. My guess is that it's not the DAW itself, but again, very hard to diagnose without being there to hear what's happening.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Having done my own testing, I can say that all DAWs are not equal. The difference happens in the summing engine in the way it handles rounding (known as rounding errors).

You have to apply some processing to engage the summing engine to know how the DAW will fare.

I did a test with a 4 mic classical recording I did. 2 stereo pairs, an ORTF & Omni outriggers. I tested by bringing the ORTF pair up exactly 3dB & bringing the Omni outriggers down exactly -3dB. No plugins, no other changes. Bounce to disk from each DAW. The DAWs I had access to to test were:

Pro Tools
Digital Performer
Logic
Reaper

None of the bounces nulled & they all sounded slightly different (and those differences showed up in an FFT). Even more surprising, some DAWs shrank the stereo field in a noticeable way, which also was visible on meters.

My take away: there is no bug free code, so there will always be slight differences from one DAW to another because of the inherent faults of humans coding the summing engine.

Steve I admit I was only reiterating what I have read/heard for years = that with no plugin processing involved at all in the file ,,most if not all DAWs will null, are you saying that is incorrect ?

And I admit I do not know what you are saying here --- "You have to apply some processing to engage the summing engine to know how the DAW will fare. What do you mean by "you have to apply some processing to know how the DAW will fare" are you saying you have use some plugin processing ?
I always understood that as soon you add any plugin processing, that all bets were off and the files will likely not null Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying ?

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Al Acuff

Kev are you arguing that all DAWs sound exactly the same if you only use them for playback? That's probably true but I use my DAW for recording, mixing, applying plugins, overdubbing, editing, summing, mastering, and playback.

No I am saying (what I thought I understood but could be mistaken ) is sans any plugin processing going in while recording ----also sans any plugin processing while mixing and playing back --- (regardless of weather you are overdubbing and or editing) that as long as you are not introducing plugin's ,,, the file will null between different DAWs. At least that is what I thought was the case

What I am now confused by is what Steve means by "You have to apply some processing to engage the summing engine to know how the DAW will fare."

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Steve I admit I was only reiterating what I have read/heard for years = that with no plugin processing involved at all in the file ,,most if not all DAWs will null, are you saying that is incorrect ?

And I admit I do not know what you are saying here --- "You have to apply some processing to engage the summing engine to know how the DAW will fare. What do you mean by "you have to apply some processing to know how the DAW will fare" are you saying you have use some plugin processing ?
I always understood that as soon you add any plugin processing, that all bets were off and the files will likely not null Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying ?

differences are introduced the moment you introduce change that needs to be reconciled by the summing engine. In my example it was changing the gain on 2 stereo tracks by +/- 3dB. But there are no plugins involved. I am just using the DAWs mixer to make gain changes.

My understanding is that with just unity playback (no gain change, no pan change, no plugins) you shouldn't hear a difference & any DAW should null. I didn't specifically test that, though, so there is room for surprise. It's the addition of math that begins to cause discrepancies (and by math I mean adding and/or subtracting gain).

Is that making sense?

When I get some time I will share the files for everyone. If nothing else, it's an interesting exercise to see how people perceive the differences.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

differences are introduced the moment you introduce change that needs to be reconciled by the summing engine. In my example it was changing the gain on 2 stereo tracks by +/- 3dB. But there are no plugins involved. I am just using the DAWs mixer to make gain changes.

My understanding is that with just unity playback (no gain change, no pan change, no plugins) you shouldn't hear a difference & any DAW should null. I didn't specifically test that, though, so there is room for surprise. It's the addition of math that begins to cause discrepancies (and by math I mean adding and/or subtracting gain).

Is that making sense?

When I get some time I will share the files for everyone. If nothing else, it's an interesting exercise to see how people perceive the differences.

Yes makes sense thanks for the clarification ..

[DoryDavis]

Such a great forum, thanks for all the perspectives, this is the OP. I was initially only monitoring through the Apollo console. The sound I wanted. Thinking I could just apply those same (minimal) effects to a raw recorded signal. But I couldn't get back to that original sound I heard.

So I decided to switch the console to UAD record. Still, on playback I wasn't getting that sound. That's when I wrote my initial post here.

I see that garageband, at least mine, seems to default into a few effects. EQ normally. So that's impacting playback. I turned that off and am getting closer. I'm wondeirng what else garageband includes, perhaps as a default, maybe invisible, with the (good) intention of making amateur recordigns sound better.

Anyway, though it looks like the consensus is that another DAW may only incrementally improve the sound, if at all, I may take a look at Luna if in fact the console is part of the timeline/workspace, as I've always found the console, and the switching between, and the need to save sessions, less than intuitive.
THANKS everybody for your sage advice and perspective so far!

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by DoryDavis

Such a great forum, thanks for all the perspectives, this is the OP. I was initially only monitoring through the Apollo console. The sound I wanted. Thinking I could just apply those same (minimal) effects to a raw recorded signal. But I couldn't get back to that original sound I heard.

So I decided to switch the console to UAD record. Still, on playback I wasn't getting that sound. That's when I wrote my initial post here.

I see that garageband, at least mine, seems to default into a few effects. EQ normally. So that's impacting playback. I turned that off and am getting closer. I'm wondeirng what else garageband includes, perhaps as a default, maybe invisible, with the (good) intention of making amateur recordigns sound better.

Anyway, though it looks like the consensus is that another DAW may only incrementally improve the sound, if at all, I may take a look at Luna if in fact the console is part of the timeline/workspace, as I've always found the console, and the switching between, and the need to save sessions, less than intuitive.
THANKS everybody for your sage advice and perspective so far!

The main reason to consider a different DAW than Garage Band is not for the sound, but the expanded feature set. While Garage Band is certainly functional for both basic recording and basic mixing and decent finished projects are definitely possible... IMO it is also fairly limited in terms mixing and editing compared to more full featured DAW's Now as to weather that difference is worth changing ? has far more to do with what any specific individual may see as there eventual goals to be involved in home recording ....

[keith.rogers]

I'm not familiar with the Apollo stuff and its console, but my experience with a few different interfaces and their add-on software is that, outside of routing that has to be manipulated using the interface manufacturer's software, or using firmware loadable/tweakable FX plugins for live streaming, or (rarely in home recording scenarios IMO) FX needed for the talent to be comfortable with the monitor feedback, keep that stuff out of the path. Work on gain settings and mic placement, and particularly with acoustic guitars, your recording space, to get a good take. If you want to augment with your pickup recorded directly, sure, but it's going to be difficult to monitor that if you're playing an acoustic instrument, even with closed back headphones. If you have to record just the direct sound, you might consider getting some in-ear monitoring earbuds, like some of the higher-end Shure's, and google at thing called "seal test" to confirm you're effectively only getting the monitor feed in your ears. (edit: of course, feel free to add FX in the mix!)

A bit late to this, but I did start with GarageBand, well, probably Audacity, but that was short-lived. GarageBand is built [these days] on the Logic core, and you can get to everything to at least turn it off, and have somewhat more limited control over settings, but it takes a bit of digging. Automation is limited, and routing, well, fuggedaboutit, at my last peek. I've been using Logic for a long time, though not as long as some others, and have not really spent serious time on anything else, but it's more than adequate for any home recorder, but, of course, that's true of any of the major platforms. Pick one, and learn a workflow for your needs. Good luck.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by DoryDavis

Such a great forum, thanks for all the perspectives, this is the OP. I was initially only monitoring through the Apollo console. The sound I wanted. Thinking I could just apply those same (minimal) effects to a raw recorded signal. But I couldn't get back to that original sound I heard.

So I decided to switch the console to UAD record. Still, on playback I wasn't getting that sound. That's when I wrote my initial post here.

I see that garageband, at least mine, seems to default into a few effects. EQ normally. So that's impacting playback. I turned that off and am getting closer. I'm wondeirng what else garageband includes, perhaps as a default, maybe invisible, with the (good) intention of making amateur recordigns sound better.

A few other thoughts:

You might try going back to UAD Mon, recording, then apply those same effects to the track in GarageBand. Sometimes there's a difference between what we think sounds good when monitoring and what we need when listening critically to playback, so adjusting all those plugins on playback may let you dial in a sound you like while listening.

Switching from GarageBand to something else isn't a bad idea. There's nothing wrong sonically with GarageBand, it's the same as Logic under the hood. But the toy-like interface is annoying, and you definitely don't want to use their channel presets. Luna will give you a more professional UI and workflow. Logic is another good option (tho not free), especially if you have existing projects in GarageBand. You can simply open those in Logic, and it will convert them to a Logic project.

[Al Acuff]

Originally Posted by DoryDavis

Such a great forum, thanks for all the perspectives, this is the OP. I was initially only monitoring through the Apollo console. The sound I wanted. Thinking I could just apply those same (minimal) effects to a raw recorded signal. But I couldn't get back to that original sound I heard.

So I decided to switch the console to UAD record. Still, on playback I wasn't getting that sound. That's when I wrote my initial post here.

I see that garageband, at least mine, seems to default into a few effects. EQ normally. So that's impacting playback. I turned that off and am getting closer. I'm wondeirng what else garageband includes, perhaps as a default, maybe invisible, with the (good) intention of making amateur recordigns sound better.

Anyway, though it looks like the consensus is that another DAW may only incrementally improve the sound, if at all, I may take a look at Luna if in fact the console is part of the timeline/workspace, as I've always found the console, and the switching between, and the need to save sessions, less than intuitive.
THANKS everybody for your sage advice and perspective so far!

Wishing you good luck and success with your recordings. Don't forget the most important thing… have fun and enjoy your music

[Rick Shepherd]

I use an Apollo Twin X with Logic Pro. Doug gave some great info as to what may be your issue. My thoughts are: I never use the UAD REC function, always just leave things with UAD MON enabled. I will assume you are plugging in your guitar to one of the preamp inputs on the back of the unit. Or, perhaps you are connected into the front guitar direct input. I will also assume you have your headphones plugged into the Apollo headphone output on the front. Make sure your input for guitar matches your type of input, either line or mic. I don’t know what your level of knowledge about how the console software acts in relation to your DAW (Garageband), and this is where I still get confused. Think of the UAD Console as more of a way of routing the sound for monitoring. The recording function happens in Garageband. In the Console, I recommend muting any unused inputs. Granted, my setup is different, because I have things connected using ADAT from my outboard converter, which is way more complicated, especially since I route hardware effects through. It gets very frustrating sometimes. But your setup seems very simple to me, but it is hard to troubleshoot your issue here in a thread. In your case, it sounds like you may be hearing more of a doubled sound through your headphones while recording. This could be because your console settings are routing more than just what is being recorded to your headphones while recording. You should be hearing the same recorded sound as your monitored sound. If not, the problem is most likely a doubled signal. Make sure you disable software monitoring in Garageband. If that doesn’t solve the problem, make sure to start from scratch with a new Console window and Garageband project. Keep things as simple as possible in your settings. I would also recommend using a microphone instead of plugging direct. I don’t think you’ll be happy with a plugged in sound, mic’ed is almost always better.