Martin binding issue question

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Like the old saying goes, it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

It's "nothing like a real poll" and everything like a real problem for those that notice that loose waist binding after spending a whole bunch of money.

Yes, I took a statistics & probabilities class, and I do know these topics aren't rooted in good sampling techniques.

BUT... AGF has a broad number of guitar owners of MANY brands who frequent this website. If you didn't know, AGF did indeed have it's initial formation as the Unofficial Taylor Forum.

If you base your comments on relatively disgruntled owners than there should be a commensurate number of posts from owners of other brands. Where are they?

If you base your comments on the number of guitars sold then there should be at least twice as many "Loose binding on my Taylor" topics.

Marginalization of the degree of importance in these topics as being due to "skewed percentages" just doesn't hold any water.

I'd also postulate that all of the "no big deal" responses are based on those who haven't felt the sting of working hard to purchase a not inexpensive guitar and then having to pay more money and do without a possibly favorite instrument, sometimes for a very LONG time. Very few of those "repaired" guitars come out unscathed, and often are devalued accordingly when it's time to sell.

It's not a "small detail" to many owners, and it's unfortunate that desiring to purchase a Martin might lead to an bitter aftertaste. I love the "idea" of proud ownership of a historically important brand, but the reality sometimes proves to be something entirely different for many.

Perfectly stated!

[dnf777]

Originally Posted by jimmy bookout

Perfectly stated!

Agree! Properly done binding repairs are not “easy and inexpensive” unless very early and avoid finish work. Even then, the resale value has likely suffered. Many here wont care…but many will.

[TheGITM]

Whatever it is that you want to do... do that. There are always differing opinions, on pretty much everything.


“What I must do, is all that concerns me, not what the people think. This rule, equally arduous in actual and in intellectual life, may serve for the whole distinction between greatness and meanness. It is the harder, because you will always find those who think they know what is your duty better than you know it. It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own; but the great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude.”
― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance: An Excerpt from Collected Essays, First Series


Have a super fantastic Tuesday!

[DJC]

Thanks for all the feedback. Very helpful.

[nitram]

Martin seems to get a pass from their very loyal devotees in a way that no other brand could ever hope for.
Martin should get all the repair guys who will be fixing some of them ( no biggie, apparently) and get them to finish the bindings before the guitars go on the market. How is it that this has been swept under the carpet for so long?

[BluesKing777]

It comes down to ethics.....

If they don’t admit to this then they won’t admit to that and it becomes familiar in this day and age of ‘deny, deny’.

BluesKing777.

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by dnf777

Agree! Properly done binding repairs are not “easy and inexpensive” unless very early and avoid finish work. Even then, the resale value has likely suffered. Many here wont care…but many will.

And many here will SAY they don’t care…which I find hard to believe

[j38guitar]

Originally Posted by jimmy bookout

And many here will SAY they don’t care…which I find hard to believe

Have you seen old Martins? Or the guitars that Martin sales as "aged"? I think we like Guitars looking a little beat up.

[kizz]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

I'd also postulate that all of the "no big deal" responses are based on those who haven't felt the sting of working hard to purchase a not inexpensive guitar and then having to pay more money and do without a possibly favorite instrument, sometimes for a very LONG time. Very few of those "repaired" guitars come out unscathed, and often are devalued accordingly when it's time to sell.

It's not a "small detail" to many owners, and it's unfortunate that desiring to purchase a Martin might lead to an bitter aftertaste. I love the "idea" of proud ownership of a historically important brand, but the reality sometimes proves to be something entirely different for many.

It is still something of a postulate since several from the target group you judge here have already written that it does not worry them much, why not respect that? Just because someone has a huge problem with it doesn't mean that others also see it that way. Are several of those who have a big problem with this then people who don't buy a guitar to keep it, but spend too much energy focusing on resale? That would be a shame. I know people who have had a guitar for 30-40 years and never complained about the repairs it needed because they were happy with it. If everything is only about reselling, then it is sad. We all lose money on instruments and that's how it's always been....

[Bluenose]

Originally Posted by abn556

You could also get a Modern Deluxe with the maple binding. I haven’t heard any stories about issues with the maple binding.

I agree. Many happy MD owners I among them.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

According to the theme that's currently next to this (which will change as soon as I post this), a poll of 230+ folks shows that about 1/2 of them have experienced these kind of problems.

That poll, however, doesn't indicate that half of Martin owners of guitars in the problem period will experience binding separation. The wording of the question was problematic because it would naturally draw the attention of those with the issue making the results skew heavily toward that side. Also, the poll had no way of accounting accurately those with multiple Martin guitars from the problem period. All that poll shows is that half the people who responded had the issue with one or more of their guitars. Since the issue was already known, the poll did nothing to shed any better light on it.

[kizz]

Originally Posted by jim1960

That poll, however, doesn't indicate that half of Martin owners of guitars in the problem period will experience binding separation. The wording of the question was problematic because it would naturally draw the attention of those with the issue making the results skew heavily toward that side. Also, the poll had no way of accounting accurately those with multiple Martin guitars from the problem period. All that poll shows is that half the people who responded had the issue with one or more of their guitars. Since the issue was already known, the poll did nothing to shed any better light on it.

This is true..

[waterlooz]

Okay, I officially freaked out after reading so many threads about the binding issue and called Martin a few months back to ask their customer service team what to expect as an original owner of a '23 Custom 000-18 should I see binding separation?

The response from customer service was both encouraging and relieving. Keep in mind, I am the original owner. CS told me if I experience any issues, call 'em up, and it will get taken care of on their dime. The person whom I spoke with acknowledged the issue and came across to me as supportive in terms of standing behind the Martin brand. I have no idea what will happen to mine. Only time will tell.

Having a guitar with a problem sucks! It can drive one insane. I owned a '97 Santa Cruz H that took a bi-monthly trip to the authorized repair shop to keep it going and it was in excellent condition when purchased. After 6 months, problems became chronic. I traded it for an Ovation Elite and gigged it for 3 years with not a one issue.

My point is this, the disappointment, anguish, and frustration of owning a guitar that is not right is real! The issue grows at it gets into the psyche and pretty much causes madness for many of us.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by kizz

It is still something of a postulate since several from the target group you judge here have already written that it does not worry them much, why not respect that? Just because someone has a huge problem with it doesn't mean that others also see it that way. Are several of those who have a big problem with this then people who don't buy a guitar to keep it, but spend too much energy focusing on resale? That would be a shame. I know people who have had a guitar for 30-40 years and never complained about the repairs it needed because they were happy with it. If everything is only about reselling, then it is sad. We all lose money on instruments and that's how it's always been....

I don't disrespect owner opinions, and I would never suggest that resale value has much to do with anyone's purchasing decisions. I relate only to what my feelings would be when binding comes loose on any guitar. Conversely, I don't think there's anyone who wouldn't have a passing second thought about spending a couple of thousand dollars if they knew in advance that what they were looking at had a much higher statistical probability of problems with structural integrity.

YMMV.

I purchased a Lowden 023c new, kept it for 20 years thinking that someday I might change my mind about it. I sold it for twice what I paid, so "we all loose money" isn't always true.

[kizz]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Conversely, I don't think there's anyone who wouldn't have a passing second thought about spending a couple of thousand dollars if they knew in advance that what they were looking at had a much higher statistical probability of problems with structural integrity.

Structural integrity? That is exactly what I think is the problem in this subject, of course there is a certain frustration associated with one's instrument getting a loose binding, but when an image is created of the guitar almost falling apart, then I understand that people who want to buy a Martin guitar are getting worried, this thread where the OP asks a question about a 2011 HD is a good example of that. That's what all the negativity in these threads leads to.

purchased a Lowden 023c new, kept it for 20 years thinking that someday I might change my mind about it. I sold it for twice what I paid, so "we all loose money" isn't always true.

You know what i mean.