#16
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It is interesting to note that the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum has had this very same discussion about Sapele vs. Mahogany, ad nauseum, with some of the same arguments on both sides of the issue that I see used here. And with Larrivee discontinuing the use of mahogany on the 03 series, and starting to use Sapele instead, this has been a subject of special interest over on the Larrivee Guitar Forum as well, in recent months.
Personally, and especially after owning a 2001 Taylor 310 with Sapele B&S, I don't have any qualms about owning a Sapele guitar any longer. My 310 sounds absolutely WONDERFUL, with a very woody and full tone, and one would be very hard-pressed to tell the difference in tone between this one and a "true" mahogany guitar, if played side by side. Sapele may possibly have a tad bit more punch in the mids, but that is pretty subjective to the listener's ear. All of the arguments about Sapele being inferior to mahogany in tone and quality, are simply not true IMO. Sapele is an excellent tone-wood, has been used for many years already, and is here to stay. Thankfully, we have a viable alternative to the diminishing supply of mahogany, and one that is available for us guitarists to enjoy. Jeff Last edited by Fstpicker; 02-13-2007 at 12:51 AM. |
#17
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I owned a Martin CEO-5 a number of years ago and it was made with Sapele. Just an amazing guitar. I also own a Martin CEO-4 mahogany sides and back. They were both pretty close in sound. Thats why I sold the CEO-5
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Sincerely, Bob Selkirk Martin HD-35 Martin CEO-4 Martin D-15 Adamas 1587 Durango B46 (So good and so cheap) Squier X-155 Jazz Box Gretsch 5120 (Sunset Orange) Fender Baja Telecaster New York Pro ES335 TWO OF EVERYTHING IS NOT EXCESSIVE An intellectual snob is someone who can listen to the William Tell Overture and not think of The Lone Ranger. |
#18
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imd have to say your correct.
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im with woodruff 100% on this point, im sure there are alot of reasons behind taylor's decision. ( PLEASE...anyone who has a statement fron taylor on this decision, please give me or us the web site adress, i think this is a very good post and one worth really looking into) we love the Taylors. i would like to give my opinion on my experience with these woods, i owned for a very short time a 2005 314CE That i fell in love with, grain/wood back/sides georgeous! tone IMHO, was really professionall level and versatile, and just plain made me love to plug in finger pick away, i loved to capo the 314ce and just go nuts all over the place, its was like having 5 guitars in one, pretty darn sweet! i really loved the sitka /mahog basic workhoarse that they are! The 314ce was every bit as fun as my 814ce, DIFFERENT YES... but dang nice! most underated taylor IMO. Sapele, also very very excellent,not as tempermental to changes in temp,in my experience. not as much overtones, less depth to the bottom range, and i agree it typically isnt as stunning or nice to look at. Its a very tight sounding less deep wood, alot of sapele gets the black paint treatment at takamine, but they do sound good! ANY ONE have a post or qoute from Taylor as to why the change and did they lower the price! they will be good with sapele, but not as good as w/ the mahag. honest opinion, not a fact! but now i would nt be so quick to stay loyal to taylor in that price range, what do you 314 ce mahagony owners say? good post, who has a statement from taylor on the move? if its truly price and a cost saving factor for Taylor, then they are losing it and my respect. However, they must have at least a good reason that they state as to why this was a good move with us loyalist's in mind? Otherwise, my eyes are opening up,and that Martin OM line is my next consideration, they arent taking us for granted....are they? i want to, respectfully hear from some of you that we all know and respect here.. ie;wade..cotton..woody b. steve s, rejoice..jeff/nightwatch, you guys have been here the longest , whats your take? thank you, Sammy |
#19
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It is likely that Taylor switched wood species for the 300 series in order to keep the price from going up. The 2007 prices for 3xxCEs remain the same as they were in 2006. As an example, Colonial Tonewoods' current price for a back and sides, African mahogany set is forty one dollars. Their price for a sapele set is 35 dollars. The reduced cost of sapele may offset the cost of neck binding and improved binding material featured on the 2007 300 series.
How would y'all like to be in the guitar making business? It's a constant fight to keep costs down and no matter what you do someone is going to be angry with you. If you increase the price there will be those that will take you to task for it. Keep the same price by switching tone woods and others will have something to say about that. We all have different priorities. I like the Taylor sound and playability and I'm not about to buy a brand whose tone and action I don't care for simply because Taylor changed the wood species (different genus, same family) of one of their lines. |
#20
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I guess I don't understand all of the questions about price. Taylor had made Sapele 300-Series guitars for years. For 2004, they went to African Mahogany, the ES System, and discontinued the bound fingerboard. Now, they went back to the Sapele and bound the fingerboard again (from what I've heard... haven't seen one yet).
How many of these people who are bemoaning this perceived cost-cutting measure acknowledged the extra cost that's going into the bound fingerboard? None. Why not? PS: On the subject of tonal differences: Apparently, Martin is comfortable enough with the similarities between S American Mahogany (ie Taylor's 500-Series, not the 300-Series) and Sapele to offer both interchangeably on their 15-Series guitars. |
#21
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Grass is always greener?
I have a friend who has a Taylor 510, I have a '96 410E. Every time we practice at his house (for church music), he is always looking to play MY guitar...and I end up playing his. And he's looking to get rid of his 510!
The thing of it is, I DON'T WANT to trade my guitar. Has my guitar "opened up"? I can't really tell. Does it really sound better than an American Mahogany guitar?? After 6 1/2 years of playing it, I still don't know. I just know I still like its own distinct sound. Both my 410E and my 355CE (which also has Sapele b/s) stand out in an acoustic "jam", soundwise...in a good way.
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franchelB: TGF member #57! |
#22
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well, i appreciate the replies very much. And though i still see sapele visually as a downgrade, i am glad to hear of otheres experiences with enjoying its "punch" as a good, not inferior tonewood. Still, i will have to go and play them, the GA-3 is what I am considering. and no, i never considered that taylor might be cutting the cost a bit to invest into binding, for why would I? my 2006 312-ce has black binding, and it is still african mahogany....but that's ok, i love my 312 and in no hurry to run out and get a new taylor. just a bit disappointed is all, not like my disenchantment is gonna cause bob any concern.
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wood '71 Guild D25 '83 Guild D35 '98 Guild F30r |
#23
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Just an opinion -
Have owned a couple of African mahogany guitars in the past (not by Taylor, but hand-made by other builders). They are nice, but seem to be more prone to cracking, especially the sides. Wonder if the switch is partly because they have run into a batch or two of wood that just cracked easier? Instead of spending a lot for warranty repairs (or incurring ill-will) it was easier and cheaper to just switch back? Of the two, I prefer the visual of sapele. Again, just one person's opinion. No other agenda meant or implied. |
#24
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Check this link to see the many grain variations and colors of Sapele.
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/person...ics/sapele.htm
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Steve 2006 Taylor 314ce African Mahogany/Sitka Spruce 2004 '57 Fender American Vintage Stratocaster 2003 Epiphone Joe Pass Emperor II Archtop 1987 '62 Fender U.S. Vintage Stratocaster 1980 Yamaha G-250S nylon string classical 1976 Fender Stratocaster |
#25
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Sapele is wunnerful.
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Wade Worry less about the guitars you want. Play the guitar you have more. The answer will come, and it will not be what you expect. A guitar is a tool, and a friend. But it is not the answer. It is the beginning. Current Guitars: Taylor 716C Modified Voyage-Air VAOM-04 CD: The Bayleys: From The Inside CDBaby Amazon Also available from iTunes |
#26
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#27
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I've never had the opportunity to play khaya extensively but I've been perfectly satisfied with the 2 sapele instruments I've owned. The first was my first Taylor, a 314ce, and I only sold it to recoup some of the money I spent on my 712ce. I still miss that guitar. The second is my Washburn beater, which is one of the most smokin' deals I've ever gotten on a guitar -- solid sapele for a price that will usually only get you a plywood guitar.
Speaking of plywood guitars, the real Taylor downgrade I see in 2007 is in the 200 series, where they've replaced solid sapele with rosewood laminate. Paying the kind of price Taylor wants for 200s for plywood is a travesty, so far as I'm concerned. If I were in the market at that price point, I'd either find another brand that gave me solid wood or save the extra for a 300 series.
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Regards, Peter ><DARWIN> ___L____L___ 2008 Collings OM-2HA 2002 Taylor 712ce 1970 Martin D-18 2008 Silver Creek D-170 2005 Washburn WD-32SW 2006 Gibson '61 Reissue SG 2002 Fender '52 Reissue Telecaster 2006 Fender Deluxe Player's Stratocaster 1972 Gibson SG Pro 1985 Squier Telecaster 2006 Epiphone AlleyKat "Life without music would be a mistake." --Nietzsche |
#28
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I hated to see the 200 series become a plywood guitar but we'd better get used to it for as the supply of trees diminishes, more and more product lines will switch to plywood.
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#29
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Obviously mahogany is a wonderful, stable wood. It's been used for every imaginable purpose we can think of which is why it's disappearing. In laminated form it has been used on millions of inexpensive guitars which is why it was considered by some to be "Plain" or a "lesser" tonewood. Now that it is getting somewhat more rare and more expensive, it's being viewed in a different way. I have no doubt that Sapele is a fine tonewood, but to many it is an alternative tonewood just like EI rosewood might have been considered when the Brazilian started running dry. Folks are going to defend their guitars and their favorite guitar builders no matter what they use and thats O.K. Builders and consumers have to make adjustments or pay a premium. We are seeing a lot of woods out there that a short while a go were not really considered "tonewoods" in a true sense, but seem to work well. Some are obviously beautiful looking yet some are a little finicky.
What are the "original" and some of the oldest known tonewoods used in production building? My guess is: Cedar Mahogany Brazilian Rosewood
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USMC RETIRED 2D Marine Division Infantry Weapons Chief 1997 Tacoma PM20 1998 Tacoma CC10 2001 Tacoma C5C 2004 Tacoma C1C 2004 Tacoma EMM30 "Forum Guitar" |
#30
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Quote:
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FlashBazbo |