What do you think about a "Critique Corner"?

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by foxo

Please don’t feel forced to apologise Glenn. I think you’re a great addition to Show and Tell and deserve all the positive feedback you get. You also take time to listen to and encourage others. I’d be very sad if you felt you needed to stop posting in Show and Tell.

Originally Posted by TheGITM

Glenn, you do wonderful work and it's appreciated by many... your production quality is outstanding, and I think it helps other see what's possible, should they wish to put in the time...

My vote is for you to keep playing, producing, and posting!

Edit: And also, thanks for all of the positive comments. You are one of the few the regularly looks at posts and cares enough to comment

Originally Posted by reeve21

Glenn, if there are any problems with S and T, you are not among them

Originally Posted by TBman

Glenn, you of all people should not apologize for your music posts in S&T. You are essentially the foundation of the AGF membership contributing to all areas of the forum and your videos entertain everyone who views them.
...

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

A general reply, somewhat prompted by two things GlenWillow said upthread.

Good feedback, honest, specific, drill-down, feedback that's not just "that was great" -- or even "that's terrible" takes a lot of work. I've had decades of doing that in the context of poetry workshopping. Frankly, I'd often think when I got done that I was too detailed, too specific, and then I'd think: who am I (other than one reader, or in our case here, one listener) to say what works, what doesn't, and what might work better? I honestly don't know that I ever helped anyone in decades of doing it.

As to GlennWillow's worry: No, I don't think you're displacing other shared performances. In general, I think more posting leads to more posting. You keep your song curation interesting, and you play and sing so well.

Thank you to all for your kind responses in this thread. They are much appreciated and make me feel a little better about my role here.

Frank, you do put in a lot of work in commenting on other's music here. You have done that so many times on my various contributions and I have always greatly appreciated all the time and work you put into your analyses.

- Glenn

[Lkristians]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

This^^^ is my concern, too. I think that deep down, most of us don't want criticism and it is really easy to cause harm when a person criticizes another.

For myself, I am highly reluctant to criticize another person's efforts. I really think we are each doing the best that we can with our efforts. I often offer positive comments in S&T because I would rather offer encouragement.

I may have offered some constructive criticism over the years in S&T when asked -- I'm reminded of Foxo's comments above -- but I have tried to make those criticisms as encouraging as possible.

I do agree with Barry that many people are posting in S&T now who never seem to offer any encouragement to others. They seem to be posting their music and not taking part in any other way.

After reading the comments above I feel that I should apologize to others here that my S&T entries often do (though not always) tend to generate a fair number of comments and feedback, which I have genuinely appreciated. But I suppose that may have been at the expense of others' threads. It was never my intention to run anybody over. When I started posting in S&T in 2016 after I stopped being a moderator and had time to do it, I was genuinely trying to reinvigorate the Show & Tell sub-section. For a while, I think that worked.

However, now the S&T section seems to have exploded with posters looking for views and offering essentially nothing back to others on the AGF. I suppose the negative side of requiring that S&T posters to be Charter Members is that probably will reduce participation on the forum. It seems we need more people and fewer bots on the AGF as it is.

I have been wondering lately if I should stop posting my covers on the AGF for just some of the above reasons.

- Glenn

I'm late to this dance, but I must say, Glenn, that YOU are the reason that S&T is so popular. You contribute not just your talent, but your advice, your wisdom, your humble feedback and your kindness. If you were to discontinue posting there, the mod team might have to discipline you!

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by Lkristians

I'm late to this dance, but I must say, Glenn, that YOU are the reason that S&T is so popular. You contribute not just your talent, but your advice, your wisdom, your humble feedback and your kindness. If you were to discontinue posting there, the mod team might have to discipline you!

Okay, Okay, Okay, Larry!!! No discipline, please!

Thank you for your kind feedback and support, Larry!

- Glenn

[Mortimer Nelson]

I don't know if another sub forum is needed, but it's disappointing to me to hear that people are afraid of posting their efforts on S&T, for whatever reason. What you might think is cringeworthy but have put a lot of work into, someone else will find interesting, and possibly inspiring. I post music that often falls far outside the AGF "aesthetic", but I'm happy to have the chance to do so, despite the consequences (I made it through high school after all), and I try to encourage others, especially newbies and those a little fringy to do the same. (note to glennwillow: I've paused my compliments not because I don't enjoy your posts as much as ever, but only because you work hard enough replying to everyone already, and you should already know by now how much you're appreciated).
Just don't let yourself be so discouraged that you give up.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by Mortimer Nelson

I don't know if another sub forum is needed, but it's disappointing to me to hear that people are afraid of posting their efforts on S&T, for whatever reason. What you might think is cringeworthy but have put a lot of work into, someone else will find interesting, and possibly inspiring. I post music that often falls far outside the AGF "aesthetic", but I'm happy to have the chance to do so, despite the consequences (I made it through high school after all), and I try to encourage others, especially newbies and those a little fringy to do the same. (note to glennwillow: I've paused my compliments not because I don't enjoy your posts as much as ever, but only because you work hard enough replying to everyone already, and you should already know by now how much you're appreciated).
Just don't let yourself be so discouraged that you give up.

Great post Mortimer and thank you for the comments about my S&T efforts.

But I especially appreciate your encouragement to others regarding S&T postings.

- Glenn

[TBman]

Originally Posted by reeve21

Hi Barry,

Thank you for the topic.

I think I might be more inclined to post if S and T was restricted to charter members. For a long time I tried to listen to everything and comment, and then it fell off to just listening and commenting occasionally. Recently I’ve not had time to even keep up with that, and I’m reluctant to post anything if I’ve not been engaged for a while. As you say, there is now a whole lot of content to try to keep up with. But I know some of the feed back and encouragement I have received there has been very helpful on my journey as a “bedroom” player.

I think there is a reluctance to be critical in a public forum. Most comments tend to be “that’s great” and many times it is, but I know I’ve put up some cringeworthy stuff! I’m not sure how to address that, maybe solicit critical comments by private message?

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. S and T has been one of my favorite areas, but I agree that changes should be considered.

It's become a free for all in S&T due to unrestricted posting privileges. I remember putting up a tune and it would sit in the top 20 for some time. Not anymore.

Back to the critiquing though, if people remember that the criticism has to be restricted to execution, not content, then maybe it stands a chance to be helpful. Again, the subforum wouldn't be for songwriting, just for guitar playing. Songwriting can go in S&T. It wouldn't be a place for reviews of a original piece even it was an instrumental.

[foxo]

Originally Posted by TBman

It's become a free for all in S&T due to unrestricted posting privileges. I remember putting up a tune and it would sit in the top 20 for some time. Not anymore.

Back to the critiquing though, if people remember that the criticism has to be restricted to execution, not content, then maybe it stands a chance to be helpful. Again, the subforum wouldn't be for songwriting, just for guitar playing. Songwriting can go in S&T. It wouldn't be a place for reviews of a original piece even it was an instrumental.

I think this would attract too niche an audience and would inevitably get lots of threads deleted with those assuming it was fine to ask for critiques of originals. I’m not really sure what the purpose of limiting it to execution is.

I also don’t really see the benefit of limiting S&T to charter members. I have been one in the past, and might do it again, but limiting it to charter members would just result in the same dozen or two regulars posting and no new talent.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by foxo

I think this would attract too niche an audience and would inevitably get lots of threads deleted with those assuming it was fine to ask for critiques of originals. I’m not really sure what the purpose of limiting it to execution is.

The purpose of limiting to execution is to help people get better at playing the guitar and playing musically. The idea would be to get more people involved in sharing their music, regardless of their playing level. It would benefit everyone interested in getting more proficient at guitar playing.

Not trying to sound snarky, but this is an acoustic guitar forum, not a singer/songwriter forum, but I enjoy listening to the songs you and others have posted here.

I also don’t really see the benefit of limiting S&T to charter members. I have been one in the past, and might do it again, but limiting it to charter members would just result in the same dozen or two regulars posting and no new talent.

The classifieds seem to do just fine with charter members only. Charter members contribute to the financial operation of the forum. Why should all those people get a free ride to promote their music and bump charter members' postings off the current view page?

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

...I have been wondering lately if I should stop posting my covers on the AGF for just some of the above reasons.
- Glenn

Hi Glenn, I’m a little late to the thread, but I’m glad to have seen the reactions by members to your above comment. No need on your part to respond but I also wanted to express in support that such a decision would be a real loss to the forum. You distinguish yourself not simply by the high quality of your posted music, but also in the way you interact with the members through your comments and responses. if you have posted constructive criticism in the past, I'm sure it was done thoughtfully and received in kind. And much appreciated by the recipient. I hope you would re-consider any such move!

As to the topic Barry, I think your idea is a good one, and could be very popular, especially among the people just getting started on guitar, which seem to be many, judging from the many questions I’ve seen in Play & Write. But it has its pros and cons. Ideally, It's best to be be sitting in front of someone, even virtually, like a teacher would, to offer helpful advice on the topics you listed. That's the most helpful setting in my view.
Behind a keyboard would be more difficult to pull off and possibly get caustic if the posted comments are neither presented nor taken in the manner intended. It's hard to predict how someone will perceive it. Even if they actively seek out constructive feedback, they might not actually like to hear it when it's provided.
And then there is the availability of knowledgeable enough folks, i.e. a pool of teachers, that could offer this kind of help. I know we have some folks here who teach, so I’m sure the knowledge is there. I’m sure some of them would respond to requests for help.
But if you’ve noticed on the classical forum, most, if not all, of the true classical players who post there never participate in any other discussions. They only seem to post their music, and that’s it. Their posts are either their music, or their thanks for the positive comments.

So, in summary, I think the idea has a lot of merit, but as others suggested, it might just be better to start off as a specific request for help in any part of the forum that makes the most sense. Hopefully, some big fish will then come by and bite!

[foxo]

Originally Posted by TBman

The classifieds seem to do just fine with charter members only. Charter members contribute to the financial operation of the forum. Why should all those people get a free ride to promote their music and bump charter members' postings off the current view page?

Non-charter members contribute advice, discussion and knowledge, which is the purpose of a forum. I don’t think it’s of benefit to the forum to foster division between those who choose to contribute $25 a year or not. I would guess that most charter members chose it not primarily because they want to support the forum, which generates advertising revenue anyway, but because they think $25 is a fair price to advertise a guitar to a targeted demographic that might sell for thousands.

I don’t think the benefit from “promoting music” is so tangible. It’s just nice to (potentially) get feedback and share your music. It’s not primarily a business transaction.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by foxo

Non-charter members contribute advice, discussion and knowledge, which is the purpose of a forum. I don’t think it’s of benefit to the forum to foster division between those who choose to contribute $25 a year or not. I would guess that most charter members chose it not primarily because they want to support the forum, which generates advertising revenue anyway, but because they think $25 is a fair price to advertise a guitar to a targeted demographic that might sell for thousands.

I don’t think the benefit from “promoting music” is so tangible. It’s just nice to (potentially) get feedback and share your music. It’s not primarily a business transaction.

Long story short - I disagree.

[LAPlayer]

Barry, I think the suggestion would be great in a limited setting. All the reasons already listed are what makes a true critique (as is done in music, art, drama, (fine arts) school) extremely hard to do on the internet. On a bulletin board such as this, as soon as a critique gets responded to a couple of times they tend to spiral out of the "nice" zone. Critiquing someone on their song about their favorite pet, girl/boy friend, deceased relative, homage to their recently-passed idol...... could get ugly fast. You would have numerous critiques by honest, passionate professionals mixed with those from internet friends and followers and the two could (read would) diverge immediately into "why did you say that to....?" and honest and meaningful critique would cease to exist. If you want true, meaningful critique, like your producer or A&R rep would provide, it would not likely work in an open forum.

In music/art school a weekly critique is done, in person, and you have to listen to it because your weekly creative input is required. Also because you want to get better. I've run songwriter/musician seminars for a couple of labels in cities where "songwriter search" review/competition/reviews were done back in the years prior to the internet and there were always tears. Then the "song writers" would go away and never be seen or heard again by the reviewer(s) or other participants. Here however, where people stick around and continue to interact with those critiquing their work, hard/bruised feelings would inevitably occur - OR no serious, propper critique would occur. Honestly, that's what your local open mic, songwriter support groups, or amateur events are for.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by LAPlayer

Barry, I think the suggestion would be great in a limited setting. All the reasons already listed are what makes a true critique (as is done in music, art, drama, (fine arts) school) extremely hard to do on the internet. On a bulletin board such as this, as soon as a critique gets responded to a couple of times they tend to spiral out of the "nice" zone. Critiquing someone on their song about their favorite pet, girl/boy friend, deceased relative, homage to their recently-passed idol...... could get ugly fast. You would have numerous critiques by honest, passionate professionals mixed with those from internet friends and followers and the two could (read would) diverge immediately into "why did you say that to....?" and honest and meaningful critique would cease to exist. If you want true, meaningful critique, like your producer or A&R rep would provide, it would not likely work in an open forum.

In music/art school a weekly critique is done, in person, and you have to listen to it because your weekly creative input is required. Also because you want to get better. I've run songwriter/musician seminars for a couple of labels in cities where "songwriter search" review/competition/reviews were done back in the years prior to the internet and there were always tears. Then the "song writers" would go away and never be seen or heard again by the reviewer(s) or other participants. Here however, where people stick around and continue to interact with those critiquing their work, hard/bruised feelings would inevitably occur - OR no serious, propper critique would occur. Honestly, that's what your local open mic, songwriter support groups, or amateur events are for.

Well said... I have had similar concerns.

- Glenn

[TBman]

Originally Posted by LAPlayer

Barry, I think the suggestion would be great in a limited setting. All the reasons already listed are what makes a true critique (as is done in music, art, drama, (fine arts) school) extremely hard to do on the internet. On a bulletin board such as this, as soon as a critique gets responded to a couple of times they tend to spiral out of the "nice" zone. Critiquing someone on their song about their favorite pet, girl/boy friend, deceased relative, homage to their recently-passed idol...... could get ugly fast. You would have numerous critiques by honest, passionate professionals mixed with those from internet friends and followers and the two could (read would) diverge immediately into "why did you say that to....?" and honest and meaningful critique would cease to exist. If you want true, meaningful critique, like your producer or A&R rep would provide, it would not likely work in an open forum.

In music/art school a weekly critique is done, in person, and you have to listen to it because your weekly creative input is required. Also because you want to get better. I've run songwriter/musician seminars for a couple of labels in cities where "songwriter search" review/competition/reviews were done back in the years prior to the internet and there were always tears. Then the "song writers" would go away and never be seen or heard again by the reviewer(s) or other participants. Here however, where people stick around and continue to interact with those critiquing their work, hard/bruised feelings would inevitably occur - OR no serious, propper critique would occur. Honestly, that's what your local open mic, songwriter support groups, or amateur events are for.

It wouldn't be for songwriter stuff - no vocals - only guitar related critique - timing issues, legato, string noise and other issues of execution. Solely for instrumental guitar. See my thread here for an example of the idea at work.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Lkristians

I'm late to this dance, but I must say, Glenn, that YOU are the reason that S&T is so popular. You contribute not just your talent, but your advice, your wisdom, your humble feedback and your kindness. If you were to discontinue posting there, the mod team might have to discipline you!

I agree we might have to sentence him 100 straight hours of polka, rap, and electronic dance music in quick alternating doses at 85 db