Live rig for worship service

[ptalbot]

I have a 414ceL7 (and love it...bigtime) and I am going to start playing in a worship band at church, and I am thinking about things to include in a stage setup. I would like to play straight to the mixing board, but want to include a tuner (probably Boss TU12H) so I am looking at direct boxes. The K4 EQ is more than I want to spend at the moment, so I am contemplating using a LR Baggs Para Acoustic D.I. I would connect 414ceL7 using balanced cable into a RadioShack XLR to 1/4" impedance changer, then into the D.I. and from the XLR out from the D.I. to the snake. I would plug the Boss TU12H into the D.I.'s tuner out jack. Anybody currently using a setup like this or have any suggestions for another method?

[michaelw]

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71933

joe sent an audio clip and it sounds great...
the guitar doesn't sound too bad either

[Deadduck]

I've been playing staight into the snake at church, but am going to try out a rig exactly like you are describing for the eq function of the Para DI. (Thanks to Joe F for posting about the Radio Shack adapter)
If all you want to do is tune, you can buy clip on or stick on tuners that either go on your headstock or at the base of the neck and sense the vibrations of the guitar. You would have to turn your volume knob down to tune between songs. Just a thought.

[rainsong]

Originally Posted by ptalbot

I would connect 414ceL7 using balanced cable into a RadioShack XLR to 1/4" impedance changer, then into the D.I. and from the XLR out from the D.I. to the snake. I would plug the Boss TU12H into the D.I.'s tuner out jack. Anybody currently using a setup like this or have any suggestions for another method?

Maybe I'm missing something here... Why wouldn't you just plug your guitar straight into the PADI with a 1/4" guitar cord and run an XLR from the PADI to the snake? Also, another vote for a clip on Intellitouch tuner, I'm not sure the PADI's effects loop functions as a tuner out jack. I know the Fishman ProEQ platinum has a tuner out, just not sure about the PADI.

[Devin]

Originally Posted by rainsong

Maybe I'm missing something here... Why wouldn't you just plug your guitar straight into the PADI with a 1/4" guitar cord and run an XLR from the PADI to the snake? Also, another vote for a clip on Intellitouch tuner, I'm not sure the PADI's effects loop functions as a tuner out jack. I know the Fishman ProEQ platinum has a tuner out, just not sure about the PADI.

I was just about to ask the same thing. When I use my PADI I just plug in using a 1/4 guitar cord... I'll tell you what, I have been playing my Taylor in Church for a long time and I tune it up before we practice, and then tweak it before we play, and really never need to retune during worship. I usually plug straight into the board, but sometimes run through a chorus, but never hook up the in-line tuner in church. For concerts, I use an in-line tuner (BOSS), but not for 30 minutes or so of worship...

- Devin

[Nelson]

I have a 2003 414rce w/ES that I use with our worship team. Here is what I use for gear. I play into the PA and use a DI box. I go from guitar to an Ultrasound DI Plus. Great tone, excellent controls, and significantly less than a PADI. It has EFX send and return that I use my Boss CH-1 Chorus pedal on for certain songs. From the DI Plus I go out to the PA via XLR cable. It has an output jack taht you can connect your Boss tuner to but I use the Intellitouch PT-1 that clips right to the headstock.

This set up works great with our system.

[Deadduck]

Originally Posted by rainsong

Maybe I'm missing something here... Why wouldn't you just plug your guitar straight into the PADI with a 1/4" guitar cord and run an XLR from the PADI to the snake? Also, another vote for a clip on Intellitouch tuner, I'm not sure the PADI's effects loop functions as a tuner out jack. I know the Fishman ProEQ platinum has a tuner out, just not sure about the PADI.

Joe F posted a thread here a while back about losing volume with the ES when using an unbalanced cable. I've noticed the same thing. Sure, you can gain up the PADI and the mixing board, but that can cause other problems. Using the Radio Shack XLR to 1/4" transformer adapter allows the signal to remain balanced through the cable, unbalanced at the DI, then balanced again into the snake. This results in a higher gain signal coming into the PADI, therefore requiring a lower setting of the gains and volumes in the chain. I haven't tried using the transformer yet, but will this weekend.
Here's the thread: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...ad.php?t=71933

[rainsong]

Originally Posted by Deadduck

Joe F posted a thread here a while back about losing volume with the ES when using an unbalanced cable. I've noticed the same thing. Sure, you can gain up the PADI and the mixing board, but that can cause other problems. Using the Radio Shack XLR to 1/4" transformer adapter allows the signal to remain balanced through the cable, unbalanced at the DI, then balanced again into the snake. This results in a higher gain signal coming into the PADI, therefore requiring a lower setting of the gains and volumes in the chain. I haven't tried using the transformer yet, but will this weekend.
Here's the thread: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...ad.php?t=71933

Hmmm, learn something new everyday! Is this a problem exclusive to the ES system?

[MattM]

Originally Posted by ptalbot

I have a 414ceL7 (and love it...bigtime) and I am going to start playing in a worship band at church, and I am thinking about things to include in a stage setup. I would like to play straight to the mixing board, but want to include a tuner (probably Boss TU12H) so I am looking at direct boxes.

I don't think I'd bother with a DI just to have a tuner. If your playing is such that your Taylor goes out of tune THAT frequently, I would get one of the ones mentioned above (that just attaches to your guitar). I use my Taylors all the time in worship services, and have never felt the need to retune between songs.

[ParleyDee]

Originally Posted by MattM

If your playing is such that your Taylor goes out of tune THAT frequently, I would get one of the ones mentioned above (that just attaches to your guitar). I use my Taylors all the time in worship services, and have never felt the need to retune between songs.

Just a thought which of course might not be relevant here, but if you capo around a fair bit or go in and out of drop-D, a tuner can be worth it even if your guitar holds tune and you aren't thrashing it, which mine does and I don't.

If I say capo up at a high fret for effect when playing with mandolin, I could well be a fraction sharp to it even if the open strings are in tune. I can't check guit to mando mid-service without being a distraction, but I can double check the capoed guitar to absolute pitch on the tuner. If I have to get in/out of drop D between two numbers with constant voices over the PA in between, it's hard to hear whether the bottom string is in tune or not. An easily-seen floor tuner takes a bit of the stress out of hitting that first chord.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by MattM

If your playing is such that your Taylor goes out of tune THAT frequently, I would get one of the ones mentioned above (that just attaches to your guitar). I use my Taylors all the time in worship services, and have never felt the need to retune between songs.

I concur. If you're having to tune that often then you may want to take a look at how you are stringing the guitar. Not enough wraps on the peghead will cause de-tuning issues. The only time I fell I need to re-tune is if I actually change tunings (and I never do that during service). I very rarely every have to re-tune mid service unless I have an old set of strings on that need to go, and only then I occasionally have to tweak something.

Unless you're strumming like you're killing rats. Then maybe you will need to re-tune.

As far as losing volume with an unbalanced cable. That is common, which is why Taylor gives you a balanced one with your ES guitar. They recommend it for the best performance of the ES. I go with the Taylor cable to the DI (I need an adaptor) then XLR to the house. No volume loss that I can tell.

The Intellitouch tuner is perfect for that.

[Deadduck]

Originally Posted by rainsong

Hmmm, learn something new everyday! Is this a problem exclusive to the ES system?

Not really, most pickup systems will lose some signal strength when going through an unbalanced cable, passive ones especially. How much they lose depends on the design of the system. But the ES is designed to use the balanced TRS to XLR cable, whereas other systems aren't. The balanced cable is like a mic cord, you can run it as long as you need with little or no signal weakening. The ES will still work plugging in through a regular guitar cable, and Taylor says it's ok, but you do lose gain from the instrument that has to be made up for somewhere in the signal chain on at the soundboard. And turning up gains and volumes can amplify noise in the system.

Ptalbot, as mentioned above, you really shouldn't have to worry about tuning during a church service, unless you are doing alternate tunings. I sure wouldn't go to the trouble of using the DI box if you don't want the EQ ability, just use the clip on. The only reason I'm trying it is for mid eq, otherwise I'd just keep going straight into the snake. If you do run the boss tuner, it would probably be best in front of the PADI, not in the effects loop.

[hguy4x]

I've never had to retune during a service unless I was going from drop d to standard and back. i've always just ran the es straight to the board. But with my crowdster I would use a padi.

[Joe F]

Didn't know my idea was still being talked about! Deadduck is correct. This issue is specific to the ES configuration. Using the XLR to 1/4 unbalanced transformer allows you to have the benefit of the ES balanced output arrangement, and still connect to a device that has a high impedance unbalanced input with little to no signal loss. It has made an amazing difference in every situation I've tried it in where I plug into a standard "instrument in" jack. I returned two Taylors this past year due to noise issues and was on the verge of returning this one and giving up on the ES before I discovered this solution. Just ask michaelw. He had already gotten the call that I would be bringing this guitar back to Holloways.

I sent a letter to Taylor earlier today detailing all of this and suggesting they investigate further. They could possibly include recommendations for this gadget in the "cables" section of their ES manual, or better yet include one of these with every new Taylor sold! If you plug into an unbalanced instrument jack, it's the best way to go in my opinion. I will never leave home without it.

[rainsong]

Correct me if I'm wrong. If you have an ACTIVE pickup in your guitar (not an ES, just any active system), doesn't that change it to a low impedance signal and allow you to run a long 1/4" guitar cord to the PA w/O signal loss?