Do saddle and pin material improve wolfe tone syndrome?

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

Andrew G wrote:
"Every acoustic guitar has its resonant frequency..."

Several, in fact.

" and, as you have discovered, they generally are most obvious on the A string and are the result of the picked note and the resonant frequency cancelling each other out."

Not exactly: although there are several ways of looking at 'wolf' notes and that has merit in certain cases. Usually we think of the resonance as reducing the impedance mismatch between the top/bridge and the string, so that the energy in the string 'leaks' out into the top quickly, and gets turned into sound. you get a note that's twice as loud for half as long, and the lack of sustain is usually more noticeable than the extra volume. However, since the bridge is moving a lot it can feed back into the string, which normally shifts the pitch somewhat, so you could say hat it cancels out some of the vibration at a particular frequency.

" I usually hear them around the F/F#/G."

Both of the resonant peaks in the 'bass reflex couple', that we often call the 'main air' and 'main top' resonances, can occur around G. The 'air' pitch is usually near G on the low E string, although it ranges from F or F# up to A or a little higher. The 'main top' pitch is about an octave above that, near the pitch of the open G string. If either of these falls right on played pitch you can have problems, and if they're an octave apart that can be a double whammy.

" Unfortunately there is little you can do to tame them without drastic surgery, and even then there's no guaranteed fix."

Wolf notes can be hard to track down, but once you do the treatment can be fairly straightforward. Whether it amounts to 'major surgery' depends on what you mean by the term, and how bad the problem is, of course.

At any rate, putting a heavier saddle in will tend to drop the 'top' pitch, and make it less active, both of which can help get rid of a wolf, depending. The same goes for heavier bridge pins, of course. I'm not so sure that the nut has much to offer either way.

Thanks for this; most informative. As for your "double whammy" comment, I experienced this on an OM-21; the bass G, the octave, open string-in fact all the G's sounded dreadful and it was returned.
I'm curious, if the guitar's resonant frequency(s) fall on the quarter note when tuned to concert pitch, would any wolf notes thus become inaudible? I only ask because I have come across one or two guitars where there didn't appear to be any issue with wolf notes at all.

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by Big_Al

It was most pronounced when finger-picking with a thumb pick and I learned to pick the 6th string in a certain way when playing it at the 3rd fret. ..... The guy who bought the guitar after I traded it in was a casual strummer, so he may never even notice it.

I never noticed these things when I was mainly a strummer. Makes sense as your are always driving the top. The more I get into finger-picking, the more I notice these things. My 416 is a wonderful strummer!

I want something that handles both well. I am thinking of the new 814ce with the new bracing, but I am waiting for someone to test the D to F# range on the A string for me, as I can't get near one. The thread is here -> http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=348068

[Jim.S]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Thanks for this; most informative. As for your "double whammy" comment, I experienced this on an OM-21; the bass G, the octave, open string-in fact all the G's sounded dreadful and it was returned.
I'm curious, if the guitar's resonant frequency(s) fall on the quarter note when tuned to concert pitch, would any wolf notes thus become inaudible? I only ask because I have come across one or two guitars where there didn't appear to be any issue with wolf notes at all.

Yes Andrew, that's what a good maker of a responsive instruments needs to do. For example tuning the main air resonance to 95Hz so that it is inbetween the F# at 92.5Hz and the G at 98Hz solves a wolf associated with the main air and tuning a main top resonance to 180Hz between the F at 174.6Hz and the F3 at 185Hz stops the a wolf associated with the main top. Most of the notes will have a good amount of impedance when transferring the string energy to the top, if the fretboard note matches the top or air resonance that note ends up with a lower impedance to the rest of the notes and that is why that note sound out differently.

I guess there could also be problems associated with whole body/neck resonances like you get on a electric guitar (dead notes not related to top or air as the electric doesn't have a top or air) but I have no idea how to measure for that and I don't think it's as simple as downloading a spectrum analyser, maybe one day.

Carbonius you could get a spectrum analyser then learn to use it to find where your top and air resonances are then work from there. "Visual Analyser 2011" is a free download then all you need is a mike as well as a mallet made with a bit of dowel attached to a eraser and you're in business. If you go down that path send me a PM and I will help you use the analyser.


Jim

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Jim.S

Yes Andrew, that's what a good maker of a responsive instruments needs to do. For example tuning the main air resonance to 95Hz so that it is inbetween the F# at 92.5Hz and the G at 98Hz solves a wolf associated with the main air and tuning a main top resonance to 180Hz between the F at 174.6Hz and the F3 at 185Hz stops the a wolf associated with the main top. Most of the notes will have a good amount of impedance when transferring the string energy to the top, if the fretboard note matches the top or air resonance that note ends up with a lower impedance to the rest of the notes and that is why that note sound out differently.

I guess there could also be problems associated with whole body/neck resonances like you get on a electric guitar (dead notes not related to top or air as the electric doesn't have a top or air) but I have no idea how to measure for that and I don't think it's as simple as downloading a spectrum analyser, maybe one day.

Carbonius you could get a spectrum analyser then learn to use it to find where your top and air resonances are then work from there. "Visual Analyser 2011" is a free download then all you need is a mike as well as a mallet made with a bit of dowel attached to a eraser and you're in business. If you go down that path send me a PM and I will help you use the analyser.


Jim

Thank you Jim, you're a mine of interesting and useful information.

[Jim.S]

You're welcome Andrew. I just want to add that those frequencies I gave of 95Hz and 180Hz are choices and not the only frequencies you can choose.

Jim

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by Jim.S

Carbonius you could get a spectrum analyser then learn to use it to find where your top and air resonances are then work from there. "Visual Analyser 2011" is a free download then all you need is a mike as well as a mallet made with a bit of dowel attached to a eraser and you're in business. If you go down that path send me a PM and I will help you use the analyser.


Jim

The older I get, the quicker I am to acknowledge when I am in over my head. I am now, in over my head. I won't be going down that path, but I greatly appreciate your offer to help. I'll see where a bone saddle gets me and see if I can live with it. If I can't, I will move on.