Do saddle and pin material improve wolfe tone syndrome?

[Carbonius]

Hi all. I have Taylor 416ce that has noticeable wolfe tone (dead notes) in the D# to F# range. It is most noticeable on the A string, but also shows up on the D and low E strings when those prior mentioned notes are played. I have dropped the guitar a whole step to verify that it is definitely wolfe tones and not just a bad fret, etc. By this I mean that the problem moved up a whole step when I tuned down a whole step.

From what I have understood through study; wolfe notes are related to body resonance and the solution often involves adding mass. Example: Cello players add a metal cylinder to the offending string behind the bridge to tune out the wolfe (pictured below). Of course, this option is not available to most acoustic guitars.

I have the stock Tusq saddle and ebony pins. Has anyone swapped both out for bone and found any degree of change??

[clintj]

Changing them seems to have tamed one of mine - likely a top resonance as it was at the pitch of the B string. Could try sticking a penny to the bridge plate and see if the added weight helps that. I think from previous threads that the low F# one is related to the resonant frequency of the body volume, and if so it would not be easily changed.

[fazool]

OK, so to this I can speak with authority. Not on musical instruments but on this exact phenomenon.


Wolf tones are not dead notes as the OP originally suggested. They are, instead resonances that create those notes without hitting them. They come from resonance natural frequencies.

By adding a mass to a string (as shown in the photo) you are changing the resonant frequency of that spring-mass system.

(this is where my direct experience applies)

For example on the crankshaft of an engine you have a complex system of springs and masses and you get resonant torsional vibrations. The crankshaft will "ring" at its natural frequency and if excited, resonate until it breaks. So we hang another mass on the end of the crankshaft, coupled with a rubber spring. This is your harmonic balancer that every engine has. It's where your timing marks are which is there for convenience. The outer ring that you see your timing marks on are actually the mass put there to change the natural frequency of the crankshaft, just like the mass on that violin string. With this you move the natural frequency out of the range so it doesn't get excited.


Pins or saddle will only change the damping and will not change the natural frequency of the system - only a spring or mass change will do that.

[Hierophant]

Do you have a clip-on tuner? My experience is that many dead spots deminish when adding weight to the headstock.

[redir]

What you do is take a gum like substance, a small piece of it like the size of a pea an place it around the sound board till you find the spot where adding a bit of mass to the area kills the wolf note. Then you stick it permanently to the underside unless for some odd reason you think it looks good on the top

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by fazool

OK, so to this I can speak with authority. Not on musical instruments but on this exact phenomenon.


Wolf tones are not dead notes as the OP originally suggested. They are, instead resonances that create those notes without hitting them. They come from resonance natural frequencies.

By adding a mass to a string (as shown in the photo) you are changing the resonant frequency of that spring-mass system.

(this is where my direct experience applies)

For example on the crankshaft of an engine you have a complex system of springs and masses and you get resonant torsional vibrations. The crankshaft will "ring" at its natural frequency and if excited, resonate until it breaks. So we hang another mass on the end of the crankshaft, coupled with a rubber spring. This is your harmonic balancer that every engine has. It's where your timing marks are which is there for convenience. The outer ring that you see your timing marks on are actually the mass put there to change the natural frequency of the crankshaft, just like the mass on that violin string. With this you move the natural frequency out of the range so it doesn't get excited.


Pins or saddle will only change the damping and will not change the natural frequency of the system - only a spring or mass change will do that.

Thank you for clarifying that, I didn't realize the terms were different. Interestingly enough, when I play in the D# to F# range on my high E with the other strings are open, the notes resonate wonderfully throughout the other strings. It's like a piano with the sustain pedal on! I understood this to be the resonant frequency. So then the A string is driving the note to hard, while the high E drives it just enough

Originally Posted by Hierophant

Do you have a clip-on tuner? My experience is that many dead spots deminish when adding weight to the headstock.

I don't have a clip on tuner, but I could try clipping something to the headstock and see if it helps. I recall reading that people would add mass to the back of Fender headstocks to solve such problems.

Originally Posted by redir

What you do is take a gum like substance, a small piece of it like the size of a pea an place it around the sound board till you find the spot where adding a bit of mass to the area kills the wolf note. Then you stick it permanently to the underside unless for some odd reason you think it looks good on the top

Great idea. A lot of trial and error, but it just might work. Any clue about where i should try?? I imagine that a controlled build like Taylor should have the problem on many of the same size guitars, but many people don't notice such a thing. I actually find that most Taylor's I have tried (GA and GS) have this problem on the A string in the same range that I do; although not to the same degree as me. Mine is made of Tasmanian Blackwood so maybe that added to it

[Von Beerhofen]

My experience with wolf tones (not dead notes) is that they can be generated by the plectrum position when hitting strings. You can accidentally hit a position where a natural harmonic sits (flageolette) and by hitting that position an unwanted harmonic will enter the fundamental.
A dead note to my knowledge is a playing position where the guitar's frequency cancels out the string's vibration by being out of phase with the note played. The culprit can be anything related to string mass or anything in the instrument's build, dimensions and used materials.
The solution given for violins or simmilar instruments seems to me an aproach which subdues sympathetic vibrations caused by excess string beyond the bridge by adding mass to the instrument. Simmilarly the headstock bits can produce such sympathetic vibrations and I feel a simmilar approach would be possible if it just wasn't so cumbersome.
Notes can also sound dead if humidity levels of your instrument isn't up to par (i.e. app 50%).
I think the methods which describe changing the instrument's mass in certain positions are a good approach, I also think you might benefit from different brands (or gauges) of strings which also have different mass.
Let us know if you find an adequate solution, good luck!

Ludwig

[Jim.S]

Wolf tone, dead note, same thing different instrument. On a violin a wolf tone sounds a bit like a wolf howl (continuous energy input from the bow) but on the guitar the same thing sounds the note a bit dead, fast decay (no continuous input from a pluck).

Its is hard to work out what is going on from your post Carbonius because your dead note is notes. You say it ranges from D# to F#. From my experience I have only heard dead notes associated with one note. The last time I tuned the main monopole top mode of a guitar as I was tuning that resonance down from 189Hz to my target of 180Hz I stopped when I got it spot on 185Hz or F#, when I played the F# it was dead as in very fast decay. I then dropped that resonance down to 180Hz (right between F and F#) and no more dead note.

If you have a guitar with a sensitive top that has a wolf associated with the main top monopole resonance then a bridge pin mass change could shift the frequency of that resonance off the scale note to in between scale notes and can the wolf. If however the wolf is associated with the main air resonance then the pin mass change (although it may shift the top which will shift the air a little because they are coupled) may not be enough.

D# to F# on your A string is 155Hz to 185Hz and sounds more likely to be associated with the top rather than the air so bridge mass may help but I still don't understand why you get a wolf over such a range of notes. like the other posters said try altering your bridge mass by adding or subtracting mass (got any plastic pins laying around to swap out the ebony ones)

Shame you are not just around the corner as I would work on it for free just because it intrigues me and I would love to know what is really going on.

Jim

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by Jim.S

Wolf tone, dead note, same thing different instrument. On a violin a wolf tone sounds a bit like a wolf howl (continuous energy input from the bow) but on the guitar the same thing sounds the note a bit dead, fast decay (no continuous input from a pluck).

Its is hard to work out what is going on from your post Carbonius because your dead note is notes. You say it ranges from D# to F#. From my experience I have only heard dead notes associated with one note. The last time I tuned the main monopole top mode of a guitar as I was tuning that resonance down from 189Hz to my target of 180Hz I stopped when I got it spot on 185Hz or F#, when I played the F# it was dead as in very fast decay. I then dropped that resonance down to 180Hz (right between F and F#) and no more dead note.

If you have a guitar with a sensitive top that has a wolf associated with the main top monopole resonance then a bridge pin mass change could shift the frequency of that resonance off the scale note to in between scale notes and can the wolf. If however the wolf is associated with the main air resonance then the pin mass change (although it may shift the top which will shift the air a little because they are coupled) may not be enough.

D# to F# on your A string is 155Hz to 185Hz and sounds more likely to be associated with the top rather than the air so bridge mass may help but I still don't understand why you get a wolf over such a range of notes. like the other posters said try altering your bridge mass by adding or subtracting mass (got any plastic pins laying around to swap out the ebony ones)

Shame you are not just around the corner as I would work on it for free just because it intrigues me and I would love to know what is really going on.

Jim

Unfortunately I am 8,373 miles away from you (according to Google). However, I appreciate your expertise and input. I certainly do not have such experience or expertise. For all I know, I could have 2 different issues going on. All I know is that the range of notes I referred to is weak in sustain when compared to other notes outside of that range. It is most noticeable on the E, A & D strings.

It became quite noticeable after having a K&K installed and I listened to it plugged in. The low E string was weak when chording, but only in the lower fret range. The local luthier who installed the K&K pointed out that acoustically the guitar sounded that way, but not as severe. He said that the bridge plate was thicker than what he made his to be and thicker than other hand builds he'd worked on. He suggested that this could be the problem. I had previously noticed it on the A string, but not on the low E. Once he pointed it out I noticed it more (of course!)

I didn't realize how much I was compensating for it until I went and played other guitars. I was plucking those low notes on the low E quite a bit harder when playing fingerstyle so they would be heard. Strumming it sounds fine as it's a bigger bodied guitar. Nothing helped on the A string mind you. The volume was there but the sustain was gone almost instantly (again, most noticeable playing fingerstyle). Anyhow, the low E problem was solved by adding another K&K head to the bridge plate outside of the low E string. I then found the high E weak compared to the other 5 so... we added another K&K head to the outside of the high E. So I have a 5 head K&K system that sounds very nice.

Is that perhaps too much mass on the bridge?? Wouldn't that be a kick in the head.

[Jim.S]

Sorry I can't help any further Carbonius, I was hoping that bringing the thread back to page one might get some more input. When I get time I will have a closer look at what Trevor Gore has written on this to see if I can find anything in the book that might help.

Jim

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Carbonius

Thank you for clarifying that, I didn't realize the terms were different. Interestingly enough, when I play in the D# to F# range on my high E with the other strings are open, the notes resonate wonderfully throughout the other strings. It's like a piano with the sustain pedal on! I understood this to be the resonant frequency. So then the A string is driving the note to hard, while the high E drives it just enough



I don't have a clip on tuner, but I could try clipping something to the headstock and see if it helps. I recall reading that people would add mass to the back of Fender headstocks to solve such problems.



Great idea. A lot of trial and error, but it just might work. Any clue about where i should try?? I imagine that a controlled build like Taylor should have the problem on many of the same size guitars, but many people don't notice such a thing. I actually find that most Taylor's I have tried (GA and GS) have this problem on the A string in the same range that I do; although not to the same degree as me. Mine is made of Tasmanian Blackwood so maybe that added to it

Every acoustic guitar has its resonant frequency and, as you have discovered, they generally are most obvious on the A string and are the result of the picked note and the resonant frequency cancelling each other out. I usually hear them around the F/F#/G. Unfortunately there is little you can do to tame them without drastic surgery, and even then there's no guaranteed fix. I once owned a Martin OM-21 which suffered so badly from wolf notes as to be unplayable and had to be returned.

[redir]

Originally Posted by Carbonius

Great idea. A lot of trial and error, but it just might work. Any clue about where i should try??

It's hit or miss but probably in the lower bout.

[Alan Carruth]

Andrew G wrote:
"Every acoustic guitar has its resonant frequency..."

Several, in fact.

" and, as you have discovered, they generally are most obvious on the A string and are the result of the picked note and the resonant frequency cancelling each other out."

Not exactly: although there are several ways of looking at 'wolf' notes and that has merit in certain cases. Usually we think of the resonance as reducing the impedance mismatch between the top/bridge and the string, so that the energy in the string 'leaks' out into the top quickly, and gets turned into sound. you get a note that's twice as loud for half as long, and the lack of sustain is usually more noticeable than the extra volume. However, since the bridge is moving a lot it can feed back into the string, which normally shifts the pitch somewhat, so you could say hat it cancels out some of the vibration at a particular frequency.

" I usually hear them around the F/F#/G."

Both of the resonant peaks in the 'bass reflex couple', that we often call the 'main air' and 'main top' resonances, can occur around G. The 'air' pitch is usually near G on the low E string, although it ranges from F or F# up to A or a little higher. The 'main top' pitch is about an octave above that, near the pitch of the open G string. If either of these falls right on played pitch you can have problems, and if they're an octave apart that can be a double whammy.

" Unfortunately there is little you can do to tame them without drastic surgery, and even then there's no guaranteed fix."

Wolf notes can be hard to track down, but once you do the treatment can be fairly straightforward. Whether it amounts to 'major surgery' depends on what you mean by the term, and how bad the problem is, of course.

At any rate, putting a heavier saddle in will tend to drop the 'top' pitch, and make it less active, both of which can help get rid of a wolf, depending. The same goes for heavier bridge pins, of course. I'm not so sure that the nut has much to offer either way.

[Carbonius]

Thank you all for the replies. I will give some things a try. One of the first things I pan to do is to get a bone saddle and maybe some bone pins and see where things stand.

I believe I have put 2 problems into 1 here. On the weekend I went to the local Taylor dealer and tried several Taylor's out. I found that all of them were weak in the D to F# range on the A string. What I do is I start with C and let it completely ring out, then C# and so on. The sustain improves around G or G# (depends on guitar). None of them had a note that REALLY sucked out tone. I have played some in the past that did.

I have noticed that some other makers also have consistent trouble in this range while others almost never do.

The other problem is just me. I hear the slightest of variations and they greatly bother me. I want it all to sound the same which is probably asking too much.

[Big_Al]

I tried a lot of things to tame a woofy "wolf" 6th string G note on a Jumbo I once had . . . saddle, brass bridge pins, different string gages, etc. I could make the guitar sound a little different, but the wolf note didn't move too much. It was most pronounced when finger-picking with a thumb pick and I learned to pick the 6th string in a certain way when playing it at the 3rd fret. I had the guitar for a few years and as it aged, the top must have loosened up a bit and the wolf dropped closer to F#, a note I didn't play as often. I never did figure out how to entirely domesticate that wolf. In truth, it wasn't even that bad, but I'm a picky about stuff like that. The guy who bought the guitar after I traded it in was a casual strummer, so he may never even notice it.