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Old 07-08-2014, 12:06 PM
MD1983 MD1983 is offline
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Default How Long Did It Take to Learn Rolls/Trills

I'm not sure what the proper term is, but I'm talking about the fast hammer-on/pull-off technique. E.g. the riff in chili peppers' Snow Hey Yo song. I just started trying to do this on the acoustic, and I'm having some problems (could my medium strings be the problem?).
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Old 07-08-2014, 12:40 PM
GuitarDogs62 GuitarDogs62 is offline
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No your medium strings are not the issue. Hammer ons for the most part become very easy and simple. It does take a little practice to get it down. Most cases with hammer ons is that the finger that should be hammering down is not done hard enough or clean enough. Clean as in meaning hitting surrounding strings. Another later greater song with Hammer ons was Pink Floyd's "Wish You were here". Lastly I play mandolin as well and have a lot of songs that requires hammer ons too, so to me it's just a little technique that requires some practice.

Pull off's can be done but is a little harder to learn. It's requires a tad more patience and practice. After awhile your fingers know exactly what to do. There are a few examples of both Hammer ons and pull off on you tube. Just perform a search and you should be able to find them.
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Old 07-08-2014, 12:52 PM
HHP HHP is offline
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If you are talking about 4 or more notes in a sequence, played in the span of a single beat, its not physically hard. At first, it doesn't seem possible but if you practice while playing the tune and just go for it each time, it becomes pretty natural. I do it a lot in Irish tunes and if you map out the sequence, start slow and build speed, it comes pretty quickly. The good news is if you miss it, it still sounds OK. I can generally do up to a 5 note sequence or roll without much thinking, harder if you do them on two strings versus one.
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Old 07-08-2014, 01:00 PM
MD1983 MD1983 is offline
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Yeah, this was exactly what I was asking about. I really appreciate your advice to just go for it and that there isn't some secret guitar voodoo curse that is blocking me. Thanks so much!

And thanks also the previous poster; I know how to do hammer ons and pull offs, I was talking about doing them in sequence, but your willingness to help is appreciated.

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Originally Posted by HHP View Post
If you are talking about 4 or more notes in a sequence, played in the span of a single beat, its not physically hard. At first, it doesn't seem possible but if you practice while playing the tune and just go for it each time, it becomes pretty natural. I do it a lot in Irish tunes and if you map out the sequence, start slow and build speed, it comes pretty quickly. The good news is if you miss it, it still sounds OK. I can generally do up to a 5 note sequence or roll without much thinking, harder if you do them on two strings versus one.
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Old 07-08-2014, 02:23 PM
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devellis devellis is offline
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I think it also helps to think of rolls as rhythmic accents, not really as 5 distinct notes. As an example, to ornament the A on the 3rd string, you might play:

A (2nd fret)
A# (3rd fret) or B (4th fret)
A (2nd fret)
G (3rd string open)
A (2nd fret)

The predominant sound should be the A note, with a rhythmic ascent and descent embellishing it. The initial and final A's (in this example) should have a longer duration than the filler notes. Those are more implied than fully sounded. If you don't get every note, it's okay. You might prefer the way it sounds with the A# or with the B but the duration of the note is so brief that it usually doesn't matter.

It's called a roll, because on fiddle, the left hand literally rolls forward, snagging the high note, then rolls back, sounding the A note again briefly then the G (open) then settling back on the A. So, the hand rolls forward, then backward, then settles back where it stared. On fiddle, the notes would likely be different because rolls usually aren't done on the G string but the idea is the same and the rolling motion is fairly similar with guitar as with fiddle, although the distances are larger on guitar.

I agree with HHP that just doing the best approximation repeatedly will eventually get you there. If you dissect it and play the 5 separate notes distinctly, it won't sound right and you'll eventually have to change the type of movement to do it quickly. So there's no muscle memory transfer from playing the 5 single notes to playing the true roll. You can play a short roll as A, A#, A as a sort of cheater version. Once that works reasonably well, go for the open string.

The pattern I described is common, but not universal. I described a 2nd finger - 3rd finger - 2nd finger - open - 2nd finger pattern. Sometimes, a 1st finger note will replace the open string, which of course allows you to move the pattern up the neck to any position because all the notes are fretted. But start really simply and add complexity only as the musical goals require.
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Old 07-08-2014, 02:45 PM
mikeiscool42 mikeiscool42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD1983 View Post
...I'm talking about the fast hammer-on/pull-off technique. E.g. the riff in chili peppers' Snow Hey Yo song. I just started trying to do this on the acoustic, and I'm having some problems (could my medium strings be the problem?).
I too have tried learning that song on guitar as I'm a huge RHCP fan. I will say its not an easy song to play at full speed but it can be done. Consider that Josh Klinghoffer (RHCP current guitar player) was unable to play it consistently when he first joined the band (and he was playing it on electric!!). It was not until later in their I'm With You tour that they even attempted to play it with him.

Good luck!!
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Old 07-08-2014, 03:01 PM
MD1983 MD1983 is offline
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Wow, I really appreciate the advice. Usually, we would have had to meet as some sketchy backroad in the Delta to have this type of guitar wisdom transference. I'm gonna try just rolling my finger to the filler note, instead of hitting it full blast; I think that may have been my problem. But again, thanks!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by devellis View Post
I think it also helps to think of rolls as rhythmic accents, not really as 5 distinct notes. As an example, to ornament the A on the 3rd string, you might play:

A (2nd fret)
A# (3rd fret) or B (4th fret)
A (2nd fret)
G (3rd string open)
A (2nd fret)

The predominant sound should be the A note, with a rhythmic ascent and descent embellishing it. The initial and final A's (in this example) should have a longer duration than the filler notes. Those are more implied than fully sounded. If you don't get every note, it's okay. You might prefer the way it sounds with the A# or with the B but the duration of the note is so brief that it usually doesn't matter.

It's called a roll, because on fiddle, the left hand literally rolls forward, snagging the high note, then rolls back, sounding the A note again briefly then the G (open) then settling back on the A. So, the hand rolls forward, then backward, then settles back where it stared. On fiddle, the notes would likely be different because rolls usually aren't done on the G string but the idea is the same and the rolling motion is fairly similar with guitar as with fiddle, although the distances are larger on guitar.

I agree with HHP that just doing the best approximation repeatedly will eventually get you there. If you dissect it and play the 5 separate notes distinctly, it won't sound right and you'll eventually have to change the type of movement to do it quickly. So there's no muscle memory transfer from playing the 5 single notes to playing the true roll. You can play a short roll as A, A#, A as a sort of cheater version. Once that works reasonably well, go for the open string.

The pattern I described is common, but not universal. I described a 2nd finger - 3rd finger - 2nd finger - open - 2nd finger pattern. Sometimes, a 1st finger note will replace the open string, which of course allows you to move the pattern up the neck to any position because all the notes are fretted. But start really simply and add complexity only as the musical goals require.
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Old 07-08-2014, 03:05 PM
MD1983 MD1983 is offline
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OK, good to know that this isn't an easy riff to play...Btw, I do remember seeing the chillis play for their first tour with Josh, and I recall thinking, man, some of these songs don't sound right at all, especially the riffs on scar tissue. Makes me wonder, which was a worse replacement for John, Dave or Josh (no offense to either, just mean in context of playing for RHCP).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeiscool42 View Post
I too have tried learning that song on guitar as I'm a huge RHCP fan. I will say its not an easy song to play at full speed but it can be done. Consider that Josh Klinghoffer (RHCP current guitar player) was unable to play it consistently when he first joined the band (and he was playing it on electric!!). It was not until later in their I'm With You tour that they even attempted to play it with him.

Good luck!!
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  #9  
Old 07-08-2014, 03:56 PM
mikeiscool42 mikeiscool42 is offline
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If you listen to their older songs near the end of this I'm With You tour, its like listening to a completely different guitar player. Josh has grown up so much in the last 2 years. It's incredible. Also, here is a link to a guy who does a pretty sweet job on this song with an acoustic. I had never thought to play it w/ a capo until him (mostly b/c I always saw the Chilis not using one). Makes a world of difference in ease of playability (word??) to me.

Enjoy.
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Old 07-08-2014, 04:10 PM
MD1983 MD1983 is offline
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Thanks for the link. The problem with using a capo though is that you can't play the bridge properly, the part where the transition from C#madd9 to B requires you to play an open E chord on the bottom strings.
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