Martin tone comparison

[dylanheeg]

Originally Posted by rforman15

I certainly don't want my Martin to not have that design element. it would no longer be characteristic of what Martin is famous for.
.

ok, there it is...

to me, this is the reason why people think that a dovetail makes a tonal difference...it is martin lore, and if you want to be a martin fan, you have to buy into this ideology. Just because it is a vintage characteristic of old martins, doesn't mean it makes a tonal differnce...

ok, off my soap box now...hahah

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by rforman15

I know of thousands of people who would disagree with that Howard.

That doesn't mean, however, that I am saying that guitars that don't feature the dove tail design element: Collings, Bourgeois, Taylor, etc., I'm not saying these aren't good guitars because clearly they are amazing guitars.

I guess the lower series Martins just aren't that impressive, overall, next to the "better" Martins, and I'm not talking bling factor here - 18 Series are pretty spartan. So maybe neck design is just part of it, but the OP did say he is dissatisfied with the sound of his Martin.

By the way, the D-15, even though it isn't a dove tail, it's a nice sounding guitar. The 15 Series is uniformly pretty good. And they hold up and get better, check out some vintage all hog Martins, amazing.

Hi Rob,
I know you are not saying that those without a dovetail are not good guitars. That's very clear.

I stand by my statement.

Whatever effect the change in mass of wood in the joint would cause, is not discernible by any human being.

If however, the romantic/intrinsic notion of a hand cut dovetail is something that is appealing/desirable to a prospective buyer, then it is important enough to have it, even though it can't be seen, and can't be heard.

THAT sort of importance.........I firmly believe. Hey: I don't like the way that ebony looks, or feels, on a fingerboard. The fact that it chips more easily than rosewood should make repairmen like rosewood more, but that is secondary to me: Looks count if one has the blessing of eyesight.

Be well,
Howard

[gtr4me]

Originally Posted by rforman15

Let me ask you this, why do the less expensive Martins not include this design, why? because it's less expensive to use the other method. and if they thought the other method is just as good and less expensive to build, why not just build all Martin guitars that way.

I'm not suggesting if there is or isn't a tonal difference. But to speak solely to your question as to why then would Martin not use bolt if it is as good and cheaper...because Martin die-hards have determined if there isn't a dovetail it isn't a real Martin and Martin is most definitely first supporting their core market base and not about to force a design change on the wants of its market.

They do it because you want it and expect it. And then maybe because they believe it makes a difference.

[rforman15]

Originally Posted by hawgadi

You have people going on the rampage about wings on a headstock in the Martin world--it's traditionalism and that's OK, but let's not mistake it for empirical fact.

I grant your point here, I just bought a Martin with, gasp, wings, it don't effect the tone. still a one piece mahogany neck would make it nicer.


Bottom line folks, Martin is still making them with the dove tail. Go ask Chris Martin why. Do you think he'll answer "folk-lore."

Collings may have come up with a perfectly adequate bolt-on design, but the Martin design still depends on the dove tail. And the fact is the dove tail Martins are better than those that don't have the dove tail. I haven't heard anyone disagree on that point.

Anyway, it's a fun debate, I own a Goodall which I don't believe employs a dove tail, and I can tell you it is one amazing guitar, .

[surfoxy]

Originally Posted by rforman15

I grant your point here, I just bought a Martin with, gasp, wings, it don't effect the tone. still a one piece mahogany neck would make it nicer.


Bottom line folks, Martin is still making them with the dove tail. Go ask Chris Martin why. Do you think he'll answer "folk-lore."

Collings may have come up with a perfectly adequate bolt-on design, but the Martin design still depends on the dove tail. And the fact is the dove tail Martins are better than those that don't have the dove tail. I haven't heard anyone disagree on that point.

Anyway, it's a fun debate, I own a Goodall which I don't believe employs a dove tail, and I can tell you it is one amazing guitar, .

I've heard a few D-16's I'd much rather own than 90% of the D-18's or D-28's I've played. I know the bracing design is different--are those dovetail? I honestly don't know.

[rforman15]

Originally Posted by hawgadi

I've heard a few D-16's I'd much rather own than 90% of the D-18's or D-28's I've played. I know the bracing design is different--are those dovetail? I honestly don't know.

No the 16s are not dove-tail. I never played a 16 that impressed me. Plenty of 15s however, I'm really tired of this debate, I return to my initial comment which is if you want a great but affordable Martin, I recommend the D-18V

[Cibby]

Originally Posted by Fob Dylan

Took my new Martin D-16rgt to my friend's house so he could check out my new git. Anyways, he has a Martin D-15 spruce rosewood and we played both side by side and his made my guitar seem lifeless. His guitar was full and rich with lovely overtones. We had the same strings and both guitars are completely stock. The only difference is his martin is 4 years old and had the opportunity to age and open up. I must admit, I was a bit disappointed in how tight my D-16rgt sounded. I considering bringing it back and starting my search again. Or should i just stick with it.

I know you are getting a lot of ideas here thats good. I have to say I have an idea what you are talking about.The black micarta fretboard on the d16rgt is a sound killer. I have heard it on that model both the D16rgt and D16gt.I have D18,D15,DX1 and they all sound good even the DX1 with light gauge strings has a good sound.I played 2 different DX1rgt's and they both sounded dead compared to the X series DX1 that has a rosewood fretboard the DX1rgt has the black micarta fretboard.I then played a D16rgt and it had a dampend sound also so I played a 2nd D16rgt same sound. If you would put that black micarta fretboard on my D18 it would do the same thing. When I bought my D15 and DX1 I played as many as I could over 3 weeks.That included the D16rgt it was on my short list as was the DX1rgt but both had that same sound like it was dead lifeless so I ended up with the D15 and DX1 to add to my stable with the D18 I really figured it was the micarta fretboard it feels soft to.You may think I'm nuts but I hate that micarta fretboard..

[Wade Hampton]

Well, obviously you dislike micarta fretboards. But I've played a number of Martins with them that I thought were excellent-sounding guitars, so I have to disagree with your assertion that micarta fretboards are a "sound killer."

I also have to question just how much the fingerboard can add or detract from the tone. I'm not willing to go so far as to suggest it has no effect whatsoever, but it's got to be so far down the list as to be essentially irrelevant.


whm

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Well, obviously you dislike micarta fretboards. But I've played a number of Martins with them that I thought were excellent-sounding guitars, so I have to disagree with your assertion that micarta fretboards are a "sound killer."

I also have to question just how much the fingerboard can add or detract from the tone. I'm not willing to go so far as to suggest it has no effect whatsoever, but it's got to be so far down the list as to be essentially irrelevant.


whm

Yep.
We seem to agree on many issues Wade.

[jooonnn]

if it is those D-15 customs that musiciansfriend only got, i beleive $899 for spruce/rw satin finish....those are the best value martins i have ever played. they are very easy to play and sound phenomenal. ive always liked satin finished martins more than the GT's.

[ozshadow]

One thing that might affect your tone is the humidity your guitar is stored in. If we have a few rainy days, my Martin will start to get kindof dull sounding. Once the weather dries up, it gets bright and lively again.

As for the spruce topped 15, it should sound crystal clear, and very smooth sounding. Very nice strummed and especially fingerpicked.

As for the 16RGT, it should be louder and more resonant with the rosewood sound. It should really stand out flatpicked, especially on the bass notes.

Sit back and let another person play both back to back a few times.

You may just prefer the mahogany sound over rosewood.


(check again when you said he had a rosewood on his D15. It may not be a D15 if it is)

[AndrewG]

On the dovetail/bolt-on debate; my take is that Martin continues with it more for tradition and customer demand than any other reason.
The reason you don't see it on sub-18 series is simply cost. It's more time consuming to cut and fit a dovetail than the mortise and tenon, which translates into higher cost per unit.
As for Micarta being a 'tone-killer' I can't buy into that at all. I owned a CEO4R which had both Micarta board and bridge and a m&t neck joint and it was nothing less than superlative in every department.
Martin players tend to be die-hard traditionalists for whom the dovetail and nothing else will do; this is fine but, unfortunately, I'm also of the opinion that this can blinker them against some truly exceptional instruments using more innovative fixing techniques leaving them to dismiss those guitars out of hand.

[wiesbaden53]

Have you put new strings on your new D16-RGT? Martin ships their guitars with uncoated strings and God only knows how many sets of fingers have played that guitar at the store before you took it home. When I used Martin Marquis strings, I needed to replace them at least once a month.

Are your sure your friend had a D15? You state it was D-15 spruce rosewood. The D15s I've known had mahogany for sides, back and top (sapele in the newer D15s).

It can be hard to compare guitars when listening to some else play. My Yairi sounds different to me when someone else plays it. Luthiers, help me out on this, but isn't sound projected from a guitar mainly forward from the top and perception of the sound (particularly overtones) is dependent of the position of the listener?

I can pick up a guitar after someone else plays it and the guitar will sound different. Not better or worse, just different. Then again, it may be case of technique and skill.

[dreamincolor]

Putting aside the neck joint and fretboard material debates....

I think the different finishes on these two models is relevant. The satin finished Martins I've played (also Larrivees and Breedloves for that matter) tend to sound very open/responsive from the beginning. The "tightness" you hear in your guitar when compared with the Martin 15 series may be related to the finish (and about 12,436 other factors).

[dylanheeg]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Well, obviously you dislike micarta fretboards. But I've played a number of Martins with them that I thought were excellent-sounding guitars, so I have to disagree with your assertion that micarta fretboards are a "sound killer."

I also have to question just how much the fingerboard can add or detract from the tone. I'm not willing to go so far as to suggest it has no effect whatsoever, but it's got to be so far down the list as to be essentially irrelevant.


whm

i agree...in fact, I'd offer there is ZERO tonal difference based on the fretboard material...how can the fretboard affect the tone?...the string touches the fret, not the fretboard material....

this is another one of those things martin purists will argue...but i find it to be an empty argument...because there is never any proof as to why....smilarly to how i have hever heard any proof to explain why the dovetail neck thing could make a difference...I still have not learned 'why' they all think it makes a difference.