Relative guitar costs btw the U.S. and France

[SFCRetired]

If I was a working musician a Takamine would be my first choice. With the CB4II preamp for simplicity sakes in a nex body shape.

Much like my Takamine P5NC, (but it has the CT4DX)

[DrGonzo]

Prices are going to go up even higher this year. The CITES thing, Euro-Dollar parity and inflation is finally supposed to rise.
I'm just puzzled (and sad, mostly sad actually) why a J45 is almost half the price of a D28.

[teleamp]

Some teachers are overpaid and hard to fire when they don't do a good job. Other than that I think inflation is the root answer to the OP's question....

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Bernieman

-
-Vindibonal, most many musicians I know usually end up playing guitars made in Asia (like most other people)...Even when dollar was cheaper opposed to euro, other things made good american guitars expensive for us - one of them being a 20% V.A.T.


Bernie

You're lucky... In Mexico (where I used to live) they have a IVA tax, similar to VAT, but it can cause prices to double from what can be bought in the states. The funny thing is that I was able to buy a hand made, custom classical guitar from a private maker for $1800 pesos (about USD$150). Sadly it was destroyed in transit on the way into the US.

Even in some states sales tax is getting ridiculous. Some places in Illinois the tax is as much as 10.5%. And while avoiding being political, this rate is really a sham, because when you think about it, we've already paid income taxes on the money we have to cough up to cover the extra 10.5%... which makes the net sales tax more in the 13%-15% range depending on your bracket.

[Jim]

Relatively speaking, in the U.S. teachers are not well paid and have annual salaries that are quite a bit lower than most other professions that also require college degrees. For example the current average salary of an elementary school teacher is $58,000. Compare this to some other professions that require a college degree:
Teacher in a university: $91,000
Architect: $82,000
Lawyer: $142,000
Police detective: $68,000
Optometrist: $142,000 (the person who checks your eyesight and fits you for glasses or contact lenses, not the medical doctor who specializes in eyes)
Pharmacist: $141,000
Nurse: $72,000
Sales manager: $143,000
Accountant: $163,000
Computer systems analyst: $93,000
Agents for performers, athletes, or artists: $98,000

This last one confirms what many performers already suspect - it is saying that unless you are a star performer with recording contracts and are performing regularly at major venues that your agent is likely making more than you are.

Also, these annual salaries are just averages - there are people who make less and people who make more than this in these professions in the US. Combine these salaries with the overall lower cost of guitars in the US than in other countries, US musicians enjoy lower cost guitars at lower percentages of their incomes than their counterparts in other parts of the world. AND, in the US the number of dual income couples is quite high meaning that a husband and wife or two people living together will have a much higher household income with reduced per person living costs from sharing their living accommodations which means more disposable income.

[Malcolm Kindnes]

Originally Posted by rickenbackerkid

Hi Bernieman,

If I was buying guitars using the income I made from playing them, I think I'd have a Takamine too. Thankfully I have other income as a sound engineer and IT technician!

It's always expensive to buy from overseas, and I find Martin/Taylor/Gibson to be pretty expensive here. In the same way, some sought after EU guitars are very expensive in the USA and good value here.

Bonsoir from Nantes!

Totally agree with this, very few working musicians can afford good guitars, regardless of where they live. On the subject of teachers, they may not earn very much, but they work very few hours compared to any other job I can think of.

[Bernieman]

SFC : I found that Takamine were good for live acts using amplification, but at home I've never felt like playing one since I have my Martin guitar...

Gonzo : therr is very little inflation in France, and it does not explain the rise of Martin guitars prices...Dollar-euro parity can explain a part of it : 2000 € were about $2600 3-4 years ago, and $2200 these days...Whereas a D-28 on major online stores was 1,9k and is now 2,8 (and noon-else is cheaper)...Ir comes from some agreement between Martin and retailers I've read...46,7% increase on the guitar opposed to 20% on euro-dollar parity. A new import partner too maybe can explain part of it (they have changed) ?
CITES makes no difference with IR or Mahogany I reckon...
When it comes to D-28/J45 parity, time for you to get a J-45 then ... (the difference is not that big in France though)

Vindibomal : yes i've heard mexico makes great classical & flamenco guitars for much less...Don't know about steel-strings, but they do make "cheap" Taylors & Martins..."Lucky"?, but 20% is more than 15% ! Price differences there must have other explanations...

[Bernieman]

Originally Posted by Jim

Relatively speaking, in the U.S. teachers are not well paid and have annual salaries that are quite a bit lower than most other professions that also require college degrees. For example the current average salary of an elementary school teacher is $58,000. Compare this to some other professions that require a college degree:
Teacher in a university: $91,000
Architect: $82,000
Lawyer: $142,000
Police detective: $68,000
Optometrist: $142,000 (the person who checks your eyesight and fits you for glasses or contact lenses, not the medical doctor who specializes in eyes)
Pharmacist: $141,000
Nurse: $72,000
Sales manager: $143,000
Accountant: $163,000
Computer systems analyst: $93,000
Agents for performers, athletes, or artists: $98,000

This last one confirms what many performers already suspect - it is saying that unless you are a star performer with recording contracts and are performing regularly at major venues that you agent is likely making more than you are.

Also, these annual salaries are just averages - there are people who make less and people who make more than this in these professions in the US. Combine these salaries with the overall lower cost of guitars in the US than in other countries, US musicians enjoy lower cost guitars at lower percentages of their incomes than their counterparts in other parts of the world. AND, in the US the number of dual income couples is quite high meaning that a husband and wife or two people living together will have a much higher household income with reduced per person living costs from sharing their living accommodations which means more disposable income.

Thanks very much Jim, cool post : this is as close to what i hoped as we ever went...Lots to learn from it.
So far, what I see really different from France are nurses' wages...Here they are significantly less paid than teachers from what I hear...

As for agents... "business men, they drink my wine..." said Bob and Jimmy ("All along the watch tower" in case some one missed that...). They don't seem to make that much as an average though...
Mine makes $0x0=€O these days (and is not even grateful from my saving him from cirrhosis...)
Cheers Jim, and all the very best...

Bernie

[Jim]

And consider that guitars in the US are normally much more heavily discounted that what I see in most other countries. For example, the three biggest names in high quality American made acoustic guitars are Martin, Taylor and Larrivee. These guitars tend to be available at many of the better dealers for 60 percent of their list prices. If you buy s guitar from such a dealer in a state that has no sales tax then that is the total cost. Or if you buy them in a state other than the one you live in and have it delivered to your state and if that store does not have a branch in your state then you do not pay sales tax either. For example, I just checked and see that a basic Taylor 510 is currently advertised at Centrale Guitars in Paris for 2.299 euros, while the list price is 2.483 Euros so a person in Paris would be paying 92.5 percent of the list price.

cordialement,
Jim

[Bernieman]

This too is an interesting point Jim : at the time a Martin D-28 was worth €1.9k, it's list price was around 2,5....There was some genuine discounts then. An online shop in Germany (thomann) started it, and shops would follow - in the north of France mostly...Prices were then a bit cheaper that they are now, in big stores elsewhere too.
But I read this shop got threatened not to get any more guitars unless they would change their way (by Martin it was said-?-)...So now we see same prices everywhere (or close)...
So I bet it's not time for unnecessary acquisitions anymore...
Some people buy directly from the U.S. too... Might be the one thing to do, though it's not the best thing to get a guitar without trying it first... I'm happy with my Martin guitar so far, and I'm glad I got it for a good price then ! Better would cost too much; the only thing is that I wouldn't like to take it to those places where people drink too much or when i's not safe...
So your remarks may be useful again some day...

You have traveled France it seems from your knowing Centrale Guitars in Paris or done business, from your using this "cordialement" ?
Did you like it, apart from high guitar prices ?

Didn't know that Larrivée went so big...One of "the 3 biggest names in high quality american made acoustic guitars" ? Did they actually went past Gibson or Guild ? (or maybe these two are then being considered as electric guitars builders as well...). Good guitars too...Do they have that little identity on top though ? That's what make me have some doubts.

Thanks again Jim for your contribution,

Bernie

[Cuki79]

Hi everyone,

I confirm about the discount price in the US. I also live in France and while I was in the travelling US last year I saw in a shop a Martin D-15m burst for 1100$ (1030€), the list price/MAP being 2049/1659$!! (the price on the shop website for this guitar was much higher)

In France you can see this guitar ranging from 1650€ (Thomann) to 2290€ (gear4music). Probably the lower you could get is arount 1550€.

LR baggs products are also much more expansive. A Venue DI is listed 299$ at GC in the US (279€) and 429€ at Thomann. And the warranty is lost if you buy and install a pickup yourself!!!

I did not buy the D-15m because I really wanted a D-18 but had to buy it second-hand. A new D-18 costs in europe 2830$, I wonder how many American would pay that money for a D-18...

(At least it proves that we european do love American made guitars.

Cuki

[frankmcr]

If wikipedia is correct, the population of the European Union is 743,100,000.

With a market that size it seems odd that nobody there has started a business to manufacture high-quality "American style" steel string acoustic guitars in a range of prices. Should be possible to beat the prices cited above for Martins/Gibsons and still do well, no?

[Cuki79]

We have good guitars.

Lakewood are nice alternatives to Taylor for example. when you buy a Martin or a Gibson, you also buy a piece of American Dream. this is also related to music. The stones, the Beatles, Clapton ... They are all English but they bought American guitars as soon as they could afford them. They were looking for the blues tone.

If the next eddy van Halen plays a Lag guitar maybe French guitar could become trendy.

[RodB]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

With a market that size it seems odd that nobody there has started a business to manufacture high-quality "American style" steel string acoustic guitars in a range of prices. Should be possible to beat the prices cited above for Martins/Gibsons and still do well, no?

Well, there is Furch and Lakewood that come to mind, and just here in France some excellent luthiers that are competitive. However the name on the headstock might not be so familiar to the masses.

[Bernieman]

Few makes have a style of their own : most many guitars end up being directly derived from well-known american made models, not to say copied from them... When possible, I'd rather go for the real thing...Copying saves all the time devoted to experimenting, developing, trying new things and so on ! Not fair I'd say...
Our taste for american guitars ? I imagine some of it too has to do with willing to have same guitars as our heroes, in order to make sure that if they reached those things with such guitars, we must be able to do the same...

The recent rise in costs of guitars makes them too expensive not to seriously wonder about possible alternatives. Acoustic american-made guitars were already too expensive to most many musicians apart from stars and those with recording deals (and those who suck too ) ...

Furch guitars are well-lnown in France and good value for the money too it seems...They are made in Czech Republic.

There are lots of excellent luthiers here, but prices are quite high : among those with personal shapes I have liked Chatelier Frères in Nice and Eric Darmagnac in Matha among others...