Relative guitar costs btw the U.S. and France

[Bernieman]

Hi Chris

Luthiers' guitars too are expensive here for the working musicians (of course I meant for free, and I was kidding)...
Don't know any of the luthiers that made guitars you own anyhow, so I can't help...Sorry you'll have to cope with your disease still ()

In England musicians can find ways to be respected and nicely paid more easily than in France it seems... Is music your trade ?
Bernie

[SFCRetired]

Since you use Teachers in your example I will tell you what it's like in Missouri.

The average teachers salary is 44,000 for 8 months of actual work. That is 125% of what the average worker here makes. It breaks down to 5500 a month. A D28 costs about 2600. So a teacher here would pay 47% of their monthly salary. If you prorated it over an entire calendar year it would be 71% of their monthly salary at 3660 a month..

[Bernieman]

Originally Posted by rogthefrog

The main difference is that there isn't a minimum monthly wage in the US. Different states or even cities have different minimum hourly wages, but there's no guarantee you'll have a minimum number of hours. Same thing with many public sector jobs like teachers where pay scales are set by a lot of different local, county or state authorities, broadly independently of each other. An engineering professor at UCLA isn't paid anything like an engineering professor at Alabama.
The cost of living varies enormously from place to place. A nice house in eg Alabama costs 1/5 what it would cost in California.
In very broad terms, if the median household income is 37k per year, or about 3k per month (gross, before taxes), a 2xx Taylor costs about half that.
But it's not really a meaningful comparison the way it used to be here 100 years ago ("a guitar used to cost a month's wages for the average factory worker") or the way it still is in Europe, because of guaranteed minimum income and a more homogeneous job market there, and a very very wide range here. The concept of "the average x worker" isn't really representative of anything anymore.
Source: a French guy who's spent half his life in each country.

Hello Rodgers

Thanks for your post : I end up being more aware now of differences between the U.S. and France... Seems like my impression that guitars such as Taylor or Martin were more affordable to american musicians than there are for us, is not necessarily very relevant...
In the last 4 years or so though, the price of a standard D-28 for instance has gone up dramatically (0,9K at a reference online store - & about 47.6% -)... That's a bit too much unfortunately !
Your experience is interesting, and it's good that you mentioned housing costs too : I had to move coz I couldn't afford a small two rooms flat's rent where I was...To a smaller town (with lesser work) !

Do you end up being able to play music regularly in the U.S. ?
Bonne Année and all the very best...
Bernie

[Bernieman]

Originally Posted by SFCRetired

Since you use Teachers in your example I will tell you what it's like in Missouri.
The average teachers salary is 44,000 for 8 months of actual work. That is 125% of what the average worker here makes. It breaks down to 5500 a month. A D28 costs about 2600. So a teacher here would pay 47% of their monthly salary. If you prorated it over an entire calendar year it would be 71% of their monthly salary at 3660 a month..

Thanks for your post "SFCRetired" and for these examples. Very useful...
One thing though, do you mean that a teacher in Missouri would actually work let's say from September to May and then stop for 4 months ? I bet it's not so, is it ?
It's the usual way in France to give wages by their monthly amount : that's how people get paid, by the month mostly, including during their one -usual- or two -teachers- months summer holidays...I'm not used to think about "yearly" wages...

[Silly Moustache]

I know nothing about teacher's pay in UK or France (I'm British), but instruments imported from non EU countries (USA,China etc.), all have import costs, Excise duties and then 20% VAT on the lot.

A quick check tells me that a basic D28 costs £2300 ($2840 or E2700).

We don't get/expect discounts like in the USA and all prices are inclusive of taxes.

[Bernieman]

Thanks Silly moustache...I mostly took teachers as an example between others...
More interesting is the comparison in between what we earn and what we pay for our guitars...That's what the thread is about. I can get prices easily on the web, but I know less about what people get paid, especially musicians...
Bernie

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by Bernieman

Thanks Silly moustache...I mostly took teachers as an example between others...
More interesting is the comparison in between what we earn and what we pay for our guitars...That's what the thread is about. I can get prices easily on the web, but I know less about what people get paid, especially musicians...
Bernie

Even for the same occupation it can be difficult to calculate relative expense. Aside from geographical income differences, which can be significant, teachers here in the US may have to pay for their own medical insurance, probably will have (and need) a car, with all the attendant expenses ... perhaps it would be best to just reason that US guitar makers price their instruments to be affordable to US buyers. Those same guitars, by the time they have been transported to another country, with shipping costs, import fees, etc. added, may become considerably more difficult to purchase even by people at the same relative income level as the people those guitars are marketed to within the US.

I don't know if that helps? Bonne annee, anyway!

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Bernieman

Thanks Silly moustache...I mostly took teachers as an example between others...
More interesting is the comparison in between what we earn and what we pay for our guitars...That's what the thread is about. I can get prices easily on the web, but I know less about what people get paid, especially musicians...
Bernie

It is an interesting thought, but I don't believe that earnings and guitar buying are that directly related.

Low earners and high earners must live within their income or go into debt.
everyone is on a budget. More important is cost of living as comapred with your pay, and if your pay is inadequate one has to make oneself more valuable and get more pay.

Guitar buying is a "disposable income" purchase, i.e. l how much and how long you can stuff the piggy bank to buy such things...... or....you can go the foolish way and buy on credit - making everything you need/buy more expansive.
So the real answer is - what does your teacher/tinker/tailor/soldier sailor/beggar-man/thief, earn, and what is his cost of living.

If income exceeds outgoings then savings are possible. If not - no guitar.

Americans (USA - not aware of Canada/Mexico situations) may get paid more than Europeans, but they don't benefit from our welfare benefits, shorter working hours, p-aid holidays, or (relative) job security.

[Bernieman]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

It is an interesting thought, but I don't believe that earnings and guitar buying are that directly related. (...) , (...)

What about working musicians ? I was not able to buy a Martin or some other good guitars when I worked as a musician, and I had to play a pretty average Takamine for 20 years : I was not aware of how much a really good guitar can be stimulating and get one into being able to devote more time to music...

[rickenbackerkid]

Hi Bernieman,

If I was buying guitars using the income I made from playing them, I think I'd have a Takamine too. Thankfully I have other income as a sound engineer and IT technician!

It's always expensive to buy from overseas, and I find Martin/Taylor/Gibson to be pretty expensive here. In the same way, some sought after EU guitars are very expensive in the USA and good value here.

Bonsoir from Nantes!

[HHP]

How many of these do I need to get a D-45 Authentic? Got a box full of them.

[rickenbackerkid]

Got some bad news for you, buddy. We use the euro now, your francs mean nothing to us now :-(

[Bernieman]

Originally Posted by HHP

How many of these do I need to get a D-45 Authentic? Got a box full of them.

You'd never know, there's a market for collectors, and some specific coins are worth quite a few bucks...It all depends on how rare they are : some years very few coins were made and they end up being expensive if you look for the right places...However this coin seems to be from long ago, very possibly "ancient francs", then worth 1/100 "new francs" as they once were called...They wouldn't be worth much if you'd find people interested, I'm afraid...(a change to new francs occurred in early sixties I think, and an other change to euros around 2003 or so)...
Otherwise, from its list price - $59,999 - you'd need about 400 000 1(new)franc coins for a MartinD-45S Authentic 1936 (the only one still listed on Martin's web site) !!!
Good american guitars are nor cheap...
Don't know if the D-45 Authentic 1942 is cheaper (not sure there would be any in France)... But who would want one anyhow !
Cheers

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

We don't get/expect discounts like in the USA and all prices are inclusive of taxes.

The good side of this is that buying from one's local store frequently makes much more sense than taking a chance on something tax-free and discounted online, which is the carrot that is constantly dangled before Americans. It means that good, individually-owned guitar stores remain competitive and can be found all over the country, unlike the US, where there seems now to be a chronic shortage of decent guitar stores within a sensible distance.

[Bernieman]

Originally Posted by rickenbackerkid

Hi Bernieman,

If I was buying guitars using the income I made from playing them, I think I'd have a Takamine too. Thankfully I have other income as a sound engineer and IT technician!

It's always expensive to buy from overseas, and I find Martin/Taylor/Gibson to be pretty expensive here. In the same way, some sought after EU guitars are very expensive in the USA and good value here.

Bonsoir from Nantes!

Thanks rickenbackerkid...Good point : I've seen one of our local luthiers' guitar being sold over $ 6000 3 or 4 years ago in some well-known american shop (a classical guitar). It happens with Gipsy Jazz guitars too, but not so much with Dreads, Om's, 000s or other "western" (? don't know what's the proper word to use) guitars though...