Decided to give some high-end Martins a try again...

[GibbyPrague]

Is there an executive summary somewhere ....?

Originally Posted by blaren

Wow! We have a FIRST ladies and gentlemen.
First time I've heard ANYONE who has TRIED one not like it.
I put my guitars into as many players' hands as possible and none have been unimpressed. Whether or not they were "for them" the voice, build and feel are undeniable.

Even if you normally drive an Escalade, the quality and fun factor of let's say...a new Ford Focus (IDK..Just trying to think of a CHEAP car that's just fun no mater who you are. I woulda said lambo but of COURSE everyone would love one of those $$$)...or maybe a different small sporty car.

I completely understand the OP comparing to the "high end" Martins. They may not be "high end" Martins but they are benchmark guitars. Kinda like Mullard amp tubes. Whether or not you consider them high end (many consider Telefunken or Siemens or GEC to be high-er end) or not, when you describe a tube to someone who knows tubes, you often compare them to the benchmark Mules.

Everyone knows that Martins sound a certain way. It's the Martin voice and it probably translates to all their models similar to how people correctly use Taylor ('s signature sound) as a benchmark to compare other (including Halcyons) to.
Whether or not a D18 and 28 are Martin's highest end offerings...they are benchmark guitars known industry-wide.
I live in a small town and believe me you, any of the musicians I know, if they saw a D28 being played on a stage, we would ALL consider it a high-end guitar. It might not have all the inlays a 45 does but it is definitely what would (around here at least) be considered pretty high-end.
We see a LOT of Seagulls and Taks and Ovations. Heck when anyone around here sees Taylor on a headstock...eeeeewwwww...ohhhhhhhh...awwwww..LOOK. ..a TAYLOR :-O even if it's only a 3 or 4 series.

Hey, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus...they make vehicles that aren't their own highest-end but ....at least around here and to the girls I go with, compared to a Kia or Hyundai, those "luxury" brands are HIGH END!

In most normal players' and all civilians' minds, Martins are high end guitars. Even the 18s and 28s. In fact, I bet that if I said to my rhythm section (granted they are a drummer and a bass player wink), would you rather have a Martin D18, D28 or D45...I BET they would select a 28..or an 18.

When I get a standard rw dread built, I will be saying..I want it to sound like a D28. When I get a hog backed dread built I will probably say I want it to be a clone of an 18. I wouldn't say I want it to sound like a D45 Marquis (?). If I wanted it to LOOK high end I would say I want as much abalone binding as a 45.

And of course, there are "high-er end" guitars than Martin's highest end production models. If we want to be super picky, NO Martin is High-End. A Proulx or Lowden or ???
So does high end mean the most expensive? The most blingged-out? The one that sounds the best?
WHAT are we considering high-end? Cause if it's high-end TONE...I know that there are more pricey and backlit and loaded with (useless?) features like solid gold knobs or diamond studded handles but a good old regular (benchmark) Ampeg SVT is a pretty high-end bass tone. Ask 99.999999% of pro stages.
There are many many many guitar amps than Marshalls. While a JTM45 or SLP100 are FAR from being their own high-end models, they to me and my audience, make some very high-end tones. But, my main gigger is a $600 Ceriatone clone of a Marshall. How do I describe it? It sounds "better" than the high-end Marshall 18w (the hw series). Is the hw 18w (1974Xhw) a "high-end" Marshall? I don't think so , not when they make 3 and 4 channel feature loaded monstrosities. Marshall makes everything from Chinese SS entry level amps to "high end" multi channel switchers loaded with digital modeling and effects, effects loops, blah blah blah blah.
Still though, when describing "high-end tone", there are a few benchmarks that I think have to be considered high-end (not to be confused with hi-fi) just because of how they SOUND and not because of how much fancy inlays and pricey wood.
I'd say for sure that some high-end tones are often not from that company's most pricey, featurefull, ornate, "high-end$$$$$" model(s).
When I speak of high-end acoustic guitar tones, which also just happen to be benchmarks to which all others are compared, absolutely a Martin D18, 28 and 35 come to mind along with Gibson's J-45s and AJs and Taylor's 3xx series.

Fellas, when you order your Halcyons, Ed will know exactly what you want if you say...I want this thing to sound like a Martin! If it's a hog backed geet he'll think 18. If it's rw he'll think 28. I realize that "benchmark" and "high-end" or "flagship" don't mean the same thing but...come-on, NOBODY "considers" a Martin D28 to be low-end. Heck, around here ANYTHING that says Martin on the headstock is considered "High-end".

The OP was comparing his Halcyon and Webbers to the benchmark Martins' high-end TONES. I mean I can't speak for him but I THINK we all know what he means. Does anyone ever say.."this guitar sounds as good as or better than a D45!"? They might say "this guitar has as much abalone as a 45"

And besides, I can't think of ANY company's (gear I mean..not cars) highest end (most expensive) model being it's best sounding.
Fender made Starcasters. Is a Starcaster a high-end or benchmark Fender tone? Nope.
Gibson made Hummingbirds and Les Paul Recording guitars. Are either of those the "high-end" or benchmark Gibson TONES? Nope
Taylor makes a $$$ Dave Matthews model.
Marshall makes some higher end amps than their best sounding models.
Ampeg makes higher end bass amps than the SVTClassis or RIs.

MBE, don't worry Brother. We ALL knew EXACTLY what you meant. Whether or not everyone wants to debate which Martin guitar is HIGH END and which ISNT really has nothing to do with what you were describing. Don't get caught-up in the stupid argument (that's why I'm here lol). Again, we all knew what you meant.

I LOVE both my Halcyons and everyone I know of who has ever played one LOVES them. For me and the other Halcyon owners, it could be the honeymoon period still. Maybe it's the HC complex where if I own it it's the BEST!!? Maybe we see the Emperor fully clothed? But again, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has taken EITHER of my Halcyons was completely floored. I'd expect that from the local Seagull owners' group (everyone local) who just don't know any better lol...but I get the same reaction here AND on the road or at festivals back in the performers' area where some actual experienced guitar guys are.

[blaren]

Sorry. There is but it's probably longer than the uncondensed version.

Sorry fellas. Believe it or NOT, I AM working on my rantiness and TRYING to keep my posts a little shorter and more concise. Believe it or not.
:-(
Baby steps.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by blaren

Sorry. There is but it's probably longer than the uncondensed version.

Sorry fellas. Believe it or NOT, I AM working on my rantiness and TRYING to keep my posts a little shorter and more concise. Believe it or not.
:-(
Baby steps.

Hi b...

Please work harder. When I see a long involved post, I read about 2 sentences and move on...

[harmonics101]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Its the technique used on a given guitar that's going to produce the tone a player likes or dislikes. I don't play my Gibsons like my Martins, I don't even play all my Gibsons or my Martins the same. Each individual guitar gets played to MAXIMIZE the tone I like from that particular guitar.

When I pick up my Martin D35, I know I'll be plucking it lightly to get the nuance of the thinner braces. When I get out the Martin HD28V, I know I will be finger plucking the strings rather firmly and agressively to get that tone I like.

For my Gibson Sheryl Crow Country Western guitar, its more of a strumming style with intermixed light plucking. My Gibson J200 ? Its time for light strumming and light plucking as well. Most of my Gibsons enjoy a lighter touch than my Martins, cuz they just don't sound great when they are loud.

Its all what you put in that you get out folks,

Harmonics

[Long Jon]

Originally Posted by usb_chord

I'm confused by this post. Are you attempting to say he's contradicting himself? If so, I dont see it.

Hi Brian. I am not really attempting to say anything at all. Just a random potshot my friends. Light-hearted banter is all... I was aiming for.

I hope Rich has seen enough of my nonsense here to get it.

As I was challenged, on my "point", I read back through a few of his (rmyA's) recent posts and confess that I was probably thinking of one where he says a friend of his keeps his Martin HD 28 V 'round at his house. So, , , my bad.

My team of lawyers is standing by, to consider the claims of any injured parties.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by mjz

The guitars played were standard series (and one 15 series) guitars. Not inexpensive, but not high end in the Martin world. The authentic series is probably more comparable to the lightly built hand builts to which the OP refers.

Sounds like you are not a Martin guy. Happens all of the time. Are you a fingerstylist? What is your style?

max

But you do sort of make the OPs point, here, I think. His post seems to indicate that he had compared similar priced Martins to a Webber and Halycon (Although I can' speak to them as I've never come across one) and found that, TO HIM, the tone of the Martins was wanting in comparison.

Let me repeat that : TO HIM.

So your counter-argument is that the comparison is unfair, because really he should be comparing the Webbers/Halycons with the Authentic series.

Right, to be fair, they need to be compared with a guitar that costs, at least in comparison with a standard Webber EI-Sitka or Mahogany-backed Dread, about twice as much.

To be fair.

TW

(Who owns a Webber, and a couple of Martins too. And who LIKES the Authentic series.)

[kydave]

If we want to be super picky, NO Martin is High-End.

I can't believe he said that!



(P.S. Now I guess I need to look up what the heck a Halcyon guitar is... Never heard of 'em.)

[rmyAddison]

Originally Posted by blaren

Sorry. There is but it's probably longer than the uncondensed version.

Sorry fellas. Believe it or NOT, I AM working on my rantiness and TRYING to keep my posts a little shorter and more concise. Believe it or not.
:-(
Baby steps.

Add me to the please try harder group. We get you like Halycon guitars, that's fine, try letting other folks perfer what they will....baby steps

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by billgennaro

i generally like the Martin "tone" but i find them to be not quite as "resonant" as non-factory builds (generally speaking, of course). as a result, they can sometimes be a tad dull sounding and a little muddy as well. but the 28 and 18 series' both seem to be in their proper place in the guitar world for the price they command (not overly expensive). i'm guessing that 90% of them are good guitars, 5% are dogs, and 5% are special. i've owned four Martins but eventually weeded them out of my collection. they all had nice tone but lacked just a bit in the area of resonance, which is big for me. on the other hand, i have played a few that were superb as well (40 series and customs). i'd like to audition an "authentic" one of these days.

That about sums it up
So to find the one special guitar (5%) you would have to try 20 guitars of the same model to find the one - statistically speaking.
That sounds Unreasonable.... but when you find it .......wow.

On another note, Every Stonebridge guitar I have ever played was special and less expensive.
That does not mean I will not pick up a martin if it hits me, as you can see from my signature.

And.......sometimes that lack of Resonance is good for recording.

[blaren]

Yup. Everyone is free to prefer what they prefer.
They are also free to not read further than 2 lines-in to any post.

Freedom...Freedom...la la la

Anyway, I prefer to say that D18 and 28s are high end. At least around here (my town) they are. Compared to the common Seagulls and Yamahas I see all the time.
And...like the OP, my custom builds (that cost less than even the low-end D18s and 28s) are preferred over every high end guitar I've ever played.

There. That was pretty short.
Thanks for letting me practice.

[kydave]

Originally Posted by blaren

Anyway, I prefer to say that D18 and 28s are high end. At least around here (my town) they are. Compared to the common Seagulls and Yamahas I see all the time.
And...like the OP, my custom builds (that cost less than even the low-end D18s and 28s) are preferred over every high end guitar I've ever played.

Short, but a bit confusing. And if you live somewhere (??) where the situation is as you've described, one has to wonder what your access to high end guitars has been like.



P.S. It is great that you like your guitars, no two ways about that!

[MBE]

Originally Posted by kydave

(P.S. Now I guess I need to look up what the heck a Halcyon guitar is... Never heard of 'em.)

Kydave,

Halcyon is a line of varnish-finished, bare-bones handbuilt guitars made by Ed Bond in Vancouver in the $1000-1200 range. His guitars are at the extreme low end of the price spectrum for handbuilt, small-shop instruments. I have one of his OMs in Lutz spruce over mahogany and it is astonishingly responsive, loud, complex and "raw" sounding. Stunning tone and playability for the money, or any money. They exemplify my belief that even the less expensive handbuilt guitars offer significant advantages in responsiveness compared to most factory built guitars.

[MBE]

Originally Posted by usb_chord

Whatever your perspective, this quote deserves to be repeated. I think it hits on one of the most powerful things about what this forum has evolved into over the years. When I first joined the AGF, I assumed my only choices for an acoustic guitar where Martin, Taylor, Gibson or the Canadian company with the name I wasnt entirely sure how to pronounce. . .

Of course, my only exposure to the market for acoustic guitars was Guitar Center. As result, I bought a Taylor GA in Sinker Redwood/ Brazilian Rosewood. A few months later I found myself in a well known Mom and Pop in Seattle (Dusty Strings) where I played a Goodall. It was a little boring looking sitka mahogany parlor. That guitar completely eclipsed my Taylor in every way possible, top to bottom. That is one of those guitar geek moments I'll *never* forget. I sold the Taylor and never looked back. I'm not sure I ever would have discovered this world of boutique guitars had I not found AGF. Well, maybe eventually...but I sure would've wasted a bunch of money in the process.

Thank you, usb_chord. It sounds like both of our eyes were opened by AGF to the world of handbuilt instruments. I, too, had a BTO Taylor (and some standard models too) which took a hike as soon as I discovered Webbers.

This forum encouraged me to reach out and try guitars I hadn't considered or known about. I assumed all handbuilts would cost much more than factory instruments ($10k was the figure I had in my head for some reason). I pulled the trigger on a $1400 used Webber through the classifieds here and my first thought when I played it was "what the?!?!?!? How is this so good for this price?!?!?"

I will gladly support and defend any Martin aficionado's right to buy and enjoy their Martins. I'm not here to bash. Just to describe an experience I had in a guitar store, and to express my opinion, and hope that someone reads this thread and gives some less-popular, handbuilt makes a try. Sharing experiences is what this forum is about IMHO. I'm just sharing mine.

The first problem is defining "handbuilt". The second is defining "better". The first is easier than the second, but not by much.

[handers]

Originally Posted by JohnW63

I think he mentioned the tone as well.

I think the point is that a hand made guitar may indeed be lighter built and more responsive than a mass built one. I have read that that is because the mass built ones need to LAST so there are not warranty issues down the road.

... may indeed. But one usually pays more than most these Martins also for custom made. Usually.

Hans