OMG - PLEASE HELP - shipping nightmare on the finish

[FrankS]

Being a polymer chemist (amongst other things), I can say that bubble wrap does not bleed into a finish especially not during a couple days during shipping. Bubble wrap is usually polyethylene and it is a very inert material when it comes to plastics. From the pictures, it look like the guitar has an oil like furniture polish on it to bring the gloss up or it may even be some plasticizers from the nitro itself. The oils would have been wicked off a bit by the contact with any other surface be it paper, bubble wrap or the like. I would see if the gloss/spots can be equalled out in a small area by buffing with a soft cloth. It may be a very simple solution so don't be too upset until you find out what is really going on. The guitar finish may be totally fine.

Frank Sanns

[NevadaPic]

Originally Posted by FrankS

Being a polymer chemist (amongst other things), I can say that bubble wrap does not bleed into a finish especially not during a couple days during shipping. Bubble wrap is usually polyethylene and it is a very inert material when it comes to plastics. From the pictures, it look like the guitar has an oil like furniture polish on it to bring the gloss up or it may even be some plasticizers from the nitro itself. The oils would have been wicked off a bit by the contact with any other surface be it paper, bubble wrap or the like. I would see if the gloss/spots can be equalled out in a small area by buffing with a soft cloth. It may be a very simple solution so don't be too upset until you find out what is really going on. The guitar finish may be totally fine.

Frank Sanns

An expert opinion I would count on. I have shipped many guitars with bubble wrap in voids of guitar cases in contact with the guitar's nitro finish w/o problem. Something else is going on here.

[patticake]

i'd like to add my vote for not doing ANYTHING to the guitar at all. contact the seller - it should be his problem, not yours. you should have received the guitar in the condition it was offered for.

[scottishrogue]

I wonder if someone (possibly the seller) did a "French Polish" on the guitar? I wouldn't do ANYTHING until I contact the seller, and find out more information, and if they are willing to pay to have the problem fixed.

And after you have more information, I would talk to someone with experience with different types of finish. A vintage guitar such as this may have a different finish on it, unlike most modern guitars. Ask a lot of questions and get 2nd or even 3rd or 4th opinions, and then....ask more questions!

Glen

[Aaron Smith]

Originally Posted by FrankS

Being a polymer chemist (amongst other things), I can say that bubble wrap does not bleed into a finish especially not during a couple days during shipping. Bubble wrap is usually polyethylene and it is a very inert material when it comes to plastics. From the pictures, it look like the guitar has an oil like furniture polish on it to bring the gloss up or it may even be some plasticizers from the nitro itself. The oils would have been wicked off a bit by the contact with any other surface be it paper, bubble wrap or the like. I would see if the gloss/spots can be equalled out in a small area by buffing with a soft cloth. It may be a very simple solution so don't be too upset until you find out what is really going on. The guitar finish may be totally fine.

Frank Sanns

I'm not sure I agree with this post. Polyethylene bubble wrap may or may not be inert depending on how old it is; brand new bubble wrap will off-gas a fair amount of volatiles, decreasing over time. The guitar was made in the 1950's; any volatile plasticizers are long gone. That is a big part of why old Gibsons show a lot of finish checking to begin with. And finally, I have seen a number of other nitro-finished guitars that have had finish damage from bubble wrap. This is not a new phenomenon.

[CFW]

Many years ago I used to ship graphics for a trade show display company.
It was common knowledge there, bubble wrap never touches the graphics.

In a 2 hour delivery packed in bubble wrap, there would be visible marks that do not come off. I don't remember all the types if prints, ink jet, lambda...even vinyl, everything got wrapped in paper first, then bubble wrap.

[FrankS]

Polyethylene is a wax like candle wax only harder due to it being a longer chain (higher molecular weight). At room temperature, it is not dissolved by any material so its use is wide spread especially in food applications and to contain hazardous materials like hydrofluoric acid. It is used in gallon water jugs and in food wrap as well as baggies. To make it, it is reacted with itself at high temperatures and pressures so there are no other materials in it.

There are many materials that react with nitrocellulose but polyethylene is just not one of them.

Frank Sanns

[Dr. Spivey]

Bubble wrap is made of polyethylene, which is somewhat porous. There is usually a barrier coating to prevent air loss. What that coating is and how it reacts with lacquer are unknown to me. Surely there is someone here who worked at a bubble wrap factory.

Originally Posted by FrankS

Polyethylene is a wax like candle wax only harder due to it being a longer chain (higher molecular weight). At room temperature, it is not dissolved by any material so its use is wide spread especially in food applications and to contain hazardous materials like hydrofluoric acid. It is used in gallon water jugs and in food wrap as well as baggies. To make it, it is reacted with itself at high temperatures and pressures so there are no other materials in it.

There are many materials that react with nitrocellulose but polyethylene is just not one of them.

Frank Sanns

We can dig into the chemistry textbook as deep as we want, but it is clear from the OP's pictures that bubblewrap and this guitar did not play well together, regardless of whether the bubblewrap alone caused the blemishes or not. The safest choice to ship guitars is a hardhsell case that actually fits the guitar correctly and then to protect the case (bubblewrap, compacted newsprint, framing supports, or whatever one chooses) inside a shipping box. If you have a less than ideal case that has some play inside, and you feel the need to use bubblewrap, at least put something else between the wrap and the guitar body to be safe. I think soft towels would be a better choice for "filler" if needed.

[heavyg]

Originally Posted by acousticologist

I just bought a '57 J45, and the shipper wrapped the guitar in bubblewrap, and it looks like it's eaten into the finish...

Has anyone ever had this happen?? is there a way to fix this??

what do i do???

what's with that saddle, that don't look good either

[NBhunter80]

Although pure polyethylene is inert, one danger with packing things in bubble wrap is that it can create a microclimate against the finish, which leads to what you see here. Also, there may have been impurities on the surface of that bubble wrap which may have reacted with the nitro finish. Nitro is very sensitive and reacts easily with all kinds of stuff. Any impurities containing Sodium, Chlorides, Sulfates etc, or simply even trapping CO2 which turns to carbonic acid when reacting with water vapour can create a localized region of low pH and can adversely affect the finish. All you would have to do is touch the bubble wrap to contaminate it with sweat containing Sodium, Chloride and other ions. FrankS, I understand that you are a chemist, and so am I, so I certainly respect your opinion on this matter; however, in no way are we dealing with pure virgin uncontaminated polyethylene. There is no debating that the bubble wrap caused this. I think that it wasn't the plastic off-gassing as some other posters mentioned, but more of a matter of the plastic trapping impurities or gasses against the finish, causing the hazy look that you see. There is a reason why museums and the like always place a buffer material (acid-free paper etc) in between the plastic wrap and an item when storing them. I own a Gibson J-45, and my guitar has lots of spots in the finish which are hazy like that due to being in contact with my arm, leg, chest etc. But those spots just add mojo because they don't look like a sheet of bubble wrap.

[darylcrisp]

Originally Posted by heavyg

what's with that saddle, that don't look good either

my guess, without seeing the guitar, is it needs a neck reset. back in the day, folks would file a v in the saddle to attempt to lower the action due to the neck shifting-seen this many a time on the old ones.

d

[dawhealer]

Well, I was going to tell you to try to use Virtuoso on the guitar until I went back and looked at the photos closely and saw that there was finish checking. Dang! You'd just be trading one cosmetic distraction for another. Can't delete a post, hence my explanation.

Hope you get it all worked out.

[chitz]

This thread has gone molecular. Love it!

I think it's entirely possible, with a little elbow grease and the right product, it may buff right off.

[FrankS]

Jon,

I agree 100% with you. They did not play well.

It is important though to keep improper folk lore from propagating and it is difficult to watch people make assumptions that some nasty materials are coming out of bubble wrap. That in itself is not a problem per se but this kind of false information has a way of propagating across applications. Then a group of people will conclude that PE is bad to have in contact with food or water and then another unnecessary fire is started. Maybe not from this forum but I think you can see how not understanding the underlying facts can leave many people with no other information. There are plenty of materials that are a problem for us, guitars and the environment so accurate information is a good thing.

Back to the original question of the pattern left on the guitar by the bubble wrap. Actually bubble wrap (polyethylene) is a fantastic vapor barrier as others have said. Some nitro cellulose finishes especially older ones that are checking heavily are very sensitive to the environment. The do not hold up to water, solvents, or temperature changes very well as evident to all of the problems seen in the OP picture. A little trapped moisture under the bubble wrap, a little transfer of plasticizer or low molecular weight nitro finish to the areas of contact, and you have a problem.

While many of us have stuffed a little bubble wrap around a headstock when shipping modern instruments with no problem, it is probably a very bad idea to completely shrink wrap or bubble wrap any guitar with a non-permeable material that has the potential to trap moisture. Air flow is always a good thing so a soft, non abrasive, low acid paper is a good interface between guitar surfaces and any non permeable packing materials.

FYI, the inside soft fabric of guitar cases is often polyolefin (velour bubble wrap), polyester, rayon, nylon, and the like with no ill effects on guitar surfaces. The difference is the fibers are inert (unlike leather or vinyl) and touch the guitar in microscopic way to allow air flow to wick moisture to and fro.

Frank Sanns

Originally Posted by GraceGuitars

We can dig into the chemistry textbook as deep as we want, but it is clear from the OP's pictures that bubblewrap and this guitar did not play well together, regardless of whether the bubblewrap alone caused the blemishes or not. The safest choice to ship guitars is a hardhsell case that actually fits the guitar correctly and then to protect the case (bubblewrap, compacted newsprint, framing supports, or whatever one chooses) inside a shipping box. If you have a less than ideal case that has some play inside, and you feel the need to use bubblewrap, at least put something else between the wrap and the guitar body to be safe. I think soft towels would be a better choice for "filler" if needed.