Decided to give some high-end Martins a try again...

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by blaren

...another advantage of a hands-on luthier build...he isn't gonna let a dog out of the shop...

This has not been my experience at all. In fact a few years ago I took in guitar built by a well respected builder that had a rooked neck set. After first accusing me of damaging the guitar the guy finally agreed to re set the neck. No one is perfect.

[mjz]

Originally Posted by billgennaro

that seems to be the main choice (there are others, of course) for guitar players. whether 'tis better to have mids/note separation, clarity and balance or nobler to seek lushness and depth of character. but i have found that, if you search hard enough, one can have both (to a large degree anyway). those are rare guitars indeed (and usually quite expensive). personally, i have found about 95% of them in luthier-built instruments only (non-factory). but that's just my ears and my experience. i don't claim it as any absolute truth towards all of mankind. i haven't played some of the less expensive custom builds mentioned in this thread (and i would never make a distinction from an internet video) but i need to try some of them to see for myself.

I don't see it as an either/or to get that quality I'm after.

I see it as all that shine, sparkle, clarity and balance PLUS the kick in the gut with complexity, power, and depth. Like you, I have played a few that deliver that quality, and they tend to be expensive boutique builds or old factory builds. But a certain inexpensive Yamaha owned by a good friend's daughter, once proved to me that the quality I'm after doesn't have to reside in an expensive guitar.

max

[MBE]

Not to necropost in my own thread, but I've spent some more time at the shop and wanted to post some updated thoughts.

Giving the aforementioned Martins and Taylors another 30 minutes of playtime each, I didn't find my opinion to change much. There were some new arrivals in the meantime, including a (Taylor) 614ce, a (Martin) GPCPA3, and a new D-28 that didn't outshine any of the other models I had tried.

But then there was a new GPCPA1 Madagascar (which I looked up and now know is Adirondack over Madagascar RW). Outshone all the other Martins and Taylors by a long shot. Warm but defined, decent volume, and like the other guitars I mentioned in this thread, the fit and finish were excellent.

This is the first time I feel I found that "special Martin" people often talk about. Head and shoulders above the others on the wall. I still found it a bit stiffer feeling than the handbuilts that have become my benchmark for comparison (comparing of course to how those guitars felt when they were brand new, not broken in). Of course, knowing now that the Madagascar Martin was an Adi top, I wonder what it will play and feel like in 5 years, since Adi is notoriously stiff to start out. But even so, it was more responsive and balanced than any other $2k+ Martin or Taylor on the wall, including the 00-28VS, 914ce, and other high-end factory-built "Big Two" guitars at the shop.

I wanted to mention this experience to show that I am willing to call a spade a spade - I am not morally opposed to factory instruments, I just found the vast majority of them to feel stiffer and less responsive than the small-shop/luthier instruments I am familiar with. This one particular Martin was special and I'd certainly be happy to own it - if I was in the market for another guitar, I'd be A/B'ing it for hours against my own instruments right now rather than typing this. Considering this was one guitar out of perhaps a dozen $2-4k Taylors and Martins that I compared it to, I stand by my opinion that this guitar was the exception rather than the rule.

[rmyAddison]

Originally Posted by MBE

Not to necropost in my own thread, but I've spent some more time at the shop and wanted to post some updated thoughts.

Giving the aforementioned Martins and Taylors another 30 minutes of playtime each, I didn't find my opinion to change much. There were some new arrivals in the meantime, including a (Taylor) 614ce, a (Martin) GPCPA3, and a new D-28 that didn't outshine any of the other models I had tried.

But then there was a new GPCPA1 Madagascar (which I looked up and now know is Adirondack over Madagascar RW). Outshone all the other Martins and Taylors by a long shot. Warm but defined, decent volume, and like the other guitars I mentioned in this thread, the fit and finish were excellent.

This is the first time I feel I found that "special Martin" people often talk about. Head and shoulders above the others on the wall. I still found it a bit stiffer feeling than the handbuilts that have become my benchmark for comparison (comparing of course to how those guitars felt when they were brand new, not broken in). Of course, knowing now that the Madagascar Martin was an Adi top, I wonder what it will play and feel like in 5 years, since Adi is notoriously stiff to start out. But even so, it was more responsive and balanced than any other $2k+ Martin or Taylor on the wall, including the 00-28VS, 914ce, and other high-end factory-built "Big Two" guitars at the shop.

I wanted to mention this experience to show that I am willing to call a spade a spade - I am not morally opposed to factory instruments, I just found the vast majority of them to feel stiffer and less responsive than the small-shop/luthier instruments I am familiar with. This one particular Martin was special and I'd certainly be happy to own it - if I was in the market for another guitar, I'd be A/B'ing it for hours against my own instruments right now rather than typing this. Considering this was one guitar out of perhaps a dozen $2-4k Taylors and Martins that I compared it to, I stand by my opinion that this guitar was the exception rather than the rule.

Who's to say ever that someone's opinion is wrong, every opinion is right for the opinion giver.

However, as a GPCPA1 owner, they are not prototypical Martins in voicing at all, however playability is excellent with the performing artist neck profile.

Maybe Martins aren't your cup of tea, that's fine, sounds like small shop luthiers work for you, enjoy..........

[broknprism]

Man, there is so much quotable stuff in this thread, I had to stop reading. It played out just like I thought it would from the very first post.

A guy made an observation; just an observation. Not a criticism, not a judgment, not brand slamming. We were hardly a page into it before I saw words like "dis" and "preaching." Even the follow ups that promise to accept the OP back into the fold -- upon appropriate signs of his repentance and open mind -- are condescending.

It's not the brand sensitivity that gets me -- I could give a rip about brands at this point -- it's the urge to suppress and control opinion. Say something unflattering about [...], and the flying monkeys will carry your behind off to the castle. So you like to play with fire, eh scarecrow...?

OP, for what it's worth, I had the exact same experience 10 years ago; never looked back. Vive la difference.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by broknprism

Man, there is so much quotable stuff in this thread, I had to stop reading. It played out just like I thought it would from the very first post.

A guy made an observation; just an observation. Not a criticism, not a judgment, not brand slamming. We were hardly a page into it before I saw words like "dis" and "preaching." Even the follow ups that promise to accept the OP back into the fold -- upon appropriate signs of his repentance and open mind -- are condescending.

It's not the brand sensitivity that gets me -- I could give a rip about brands at this point -- it's the urge to suppress and control opinion. Say something unflattering about [...], and the flying monkeys will carry your behind off to the castle. So you like to play with fire, eh scarecrow...?

OP, for what it's worth, I had the exact same experience 10 years ago; never looked back. Vive la difference.

Just reread the first page and didn't see any attempt to suppress the OP's opinion, in fact 5 of the 15 posts on the first page came from the OP, the same guy who decided to resurrect this thread from page 30. I've not gone past the first page this time around but overall I think this was a pretty tame thread. The OP is entitled to his opinion and those of us with more experience are entitled to ours. Just kidding of course.