Predicting broken-in tone? - Page 2

Wade Hampton · #16 10-24-2016, 08:07 PM

Ross, as everyone else has said, never buy a guitar based on what you hope the guitar will eventually sound like. It has to sound good in the first place to get to the point where it sounds better and better.

That said, where the tone of acoustic guitars tends to develop is by opening up in the bass response and the lower midrange. Whatever treble response the guitar has when brand new is likely to remain constant, no matter how old and how much the guitar gets played, but the low end can and will become more pronounced.

Naturally, this being the Internet there are those who scoff at the idea of such a thing as a guitar's tone changing with time and use. We should be getting some pedantic dismissals of the very idea here soon enough.

But everyone I personally know who builds, plays or works with acoustic stringed instruments accepts the idea that the tone does change over time. The idea of guitars breaking in is controversial only on Internet guitar forums like this one.

I can sure hear a difference, particularly with instruments that belong to other people that I've played when new, then again a couple of years later. On a day to day basis a guitar breaking in is a very subtle process, but when you get a chance to play a guitar or mandolin on different occasions a few years apart, it can be quite dramatic.

Hope that makes sense.

Wade Hampton Miller

YeOldRocker · #17 10-25-2016, 07:09 AM

I agree with Wade completely.

To me, the best way to look at buying a new guitar - assuming we're talking solid wood guitars - is to realize that a guitar that sounds great to you now will sound even better as it ages, while a guitar that doesn't sound great to you now will never become a great guitar, ever.

mickthemiller · #18 10-25-2016, 07:56 AM

If a guitar sounds right for you then it is. If it sounds not right it ain't gonna get right. Believe me I know.

Misifus · #19 10-25-2016, 08:05 AM

Having experienced it, I am a believer that new guitars can have a change in their sound as they are played in. However, that change is subtle and not greatly different from the original sound. That is, the final sound of a guitar will be pretty much like the original sound, but, perhaps, a bit bassier or fuller. Don't expect a fundamental transformation in an instrument.

rokdog49 · #20 10-25-2016, 08:08 AM

I think all anyone can do is speak from personal experience and the experiences of people with experience

Having said that, my L03 definitely "opened up" "matured" or whatever else you want to call it over a period of about 2 years. it is warmer, smoother and sweeter sounding to my ears and that's all that matters.

Alan Carruth · #21 10-25-2016, 01:47 PM

What Wade said: thanks.

I've done some measurements that seem to show just what he's saying.

As for whether 'playing in' makes a guitar better or not, tat depends on two things: where it started out, and what you think of as 'better'. Since it's mostly the bass response that is enhanced, a guitar that starts out a bit 'tight' in the low end will usually get 'better'. One that's already 'bassy' to start with could just as well end up 'tubby'.

justonwo · #22 10-25-2016, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

What Wade said: thanks.

I've done some measurements that seem to show just what he's saying.

As for whether 'playing in' makes a guitar better or not, tat depends on two things: where it started out, and what you think of as 'better'. Since it's mostly the bass response that is enhanced, a guitar that starts out a bit 'tight' in the low end will usually get 'better'. One that's already 'bassy' to start with could just as well end up 'tubby'.

I experienced exactly this phenomenon recently with my Circa OM.

Goat Mick · #23 10-25-2016, 07:23 PM

Like others have said buy a guitar because you like the like the way it sounds right now. My experience has been that the basic charistisics of a guitar's tone doesn't change, it just becomes more of what it is. For lack of a better description the start out tight and over time they start to breathe. They just get sweeter.

McCawber · #24 10-25-2016, 07:48 PM

I in the "buy it if it sounds good now," club. But I also believe I have empirical evidence that a good guitar does indeed improve over time. I bought my D-28 new in 1967 and the only time it was out of my sight was during basic training in 1968. It sounded great when new, but was a bit tight. Now, it will stand out in a jamb. It is a straight-braced guitar that can keep up with any of my modern scalloped Martins for volume - and has a tone all it's own.

zabdart · #25 10-25-2016, 08:20 PM

This is a very subjective matter and so is any attempt to evaluate it. Any attempt to see into the future can only be speculative. I think what you can say about the tone of a guitar once it "breaks in" is that it will give you more of what you're hearing in its tone when its new... and part of that has to do with the way you approach it as a player. Every acoustic guitar is different and has its own sweet sounds to deliver. As a player you reflexively learn where those sweet sounds are and how to bring them out. It's almost as if the guitar is getting used to you and the way you play it as it is about you getting used to the guitar. But, as other people have said, if you don't hear something you want in a guitar when it's new, the chances of it being there 5 or 10 years from now are virtually nil.

LSemmens · #26 10-26-2016, 05:26 AM

Of course a guitar gets better the longer YOU play it. Only because YOU get better by playing it! Yes, the tone may improve with age, but not nearly as much as your playing will improve as you play. If you like it now! You'll still like it in years to come. If you don't like it now, DON'T BUY IT!

#27 10-26-2016, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zabdart

This is a very subjective matter and so is any attempt to evaluate it.

Check post#21. While the rest of us talk about stuff, Alan measures it.

As dneal said earlier, steel string players think guitars get better with age, while classical players think they get worse. While that wouldn't pass for scientific proof, it is a fairly good indicator that guitars change. Whether that change is good or bad is another thing entirely.

My experience is much like Wade and Juston described. I've noticed the greatest change in the first 3 months, then the rest of that first year. After that change seems pretty gradual. My gut feel is that most of it has happened after the first 10 years, but I could be wrong.

dneal · #28 10-26-2016, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Naturally, this being the Internet there are those who scoff at the idea of such a thing as a guitar's tone changing with time and use. We should be getting some pedantic dismissals of the very idea here soon enough.

But everyone I personally know who builds, plays or works with acoustic stringed instruments accepts the idea that the tone does change over time. The idea of guitars breaking in is controversial only on Internet guitar forums like this one.

Not disagreeing, since I believe that guitars change over time, but I do want to be a little pedantic...

The problem is scientific evidence vs anecdotal evidence, and simple speculation regarding cause. I don't know that anyone has measured frequency response, volume, etc... over an extended period of time while tracking amount of playing time. There are also many other variables (such as climate) that should be controlled or accounted for.

I don't think it's unfair or pedantic to recognize those facts, even though many folks get touchy when their beliefs are challenged.

Alan Carruth · #29 10-26-2016, 12:19 PM

dneal wrote:
"I don't know that anyone has measured frequency response, volume, etc... over an extended period of time while tracking amount of playing time."

I have, at least to some extent, and seen measreable changes.

As always, there are lots of problems with making long term measurements. It can be difficult to ensure that they're made in exactly the same way, for example, particularly if you're thinking about a term that might be months or even years. This can be circumvented to some degree by using a mechanical method to 'play' the guitar that can put in more power, and work day and night at it, but that's not like 'real' playing, so people often reject the idea.

A really good way to do it would be to make two identical guitars which can be kept together while you play one and not the other. It would be fairly easy to test them out 'before' and 'after' in front of audiences to see if there has been a change. This assumes these two 'identical' instruments actually sound the same to begin with, and that has proved to be a tough one.

Failing that, we will probably have to rely on before and after measurements, and possibly well-controlled recordings, of a fairly large number of guitars to resolve the issue. You can never 'prove' such things' of course; there's always some room for doubt, but there are well understood statistical methods that can set limits on the likelihood that something is real.

At any rate, no matter how you do it such testing will require a lot of time and effort. The most effective way to get this done is to find some hapless grad student who can be induced to take the project on as a thesis. That's a long shot, but somewhat more likely that convincing Homeland Security that understanding this will help in the fight against domestic terrorism.

RossM · #30 10-26-2016, 12:48 PM

Thanks again for all the reply's. Very informative.
Like I said in another thread, I have primarily been a bass player. I've only gravitated to the acoustic guitar in the last couple of years and have only gotten sort of infatuated with the instrument in the last year.
I'm 54 and I tend to buy new instruments and keep them forever. I have one bass, a ’97 G&L USA SB-2. Bought it new and stuck with it. I did go through a few basses before settling on that one. About that time I settled on a USA Ampeg B-100R and it is still my main amp.
I want to do the same thing with guitar but in this case I need two. One that I can take camping and to open jams/open mics without too much worry and another that is for more intimate and safer environments. I already have my beater, though it is very nice for a beater (Breedlove Pursuit Concert Eb ).
I'm not ready to buy yet because I’m still learning, but there have been a few guitars that I thought seemed just right. The tone I gravitate towards is clear and articulate but definitely on the darker bassier side. I’ve found a couple that I thought hit the sweet spot, one was the Taylor 410e-R LTD. That’s what prompted this thread. If I did buy a guitar like that I was worried that it might continue to get bassier over time and fall out of the sweet spot. Sounds like I’m worrying for nothing. Guitars mature a bit but nothing too dramatic. You wind up with more of that you liked in the guitar originally.
I have noticed that the guitar I have keeps sounding better and better but I think that is because I am getting to be a better guitar player. I’m assuming the guit actually sounds the same.

~Ross